P4P bias towards American based fighters?

[Kel]

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.

Nice sig pic CMM, hunting in the Yorkshire dales?

[antimoron]

P4P is a myth to begin with.. Bias towards american base? maybe.. coz it is where the big fights happening.. if a fighter fights only in his home town or country, chances are he will never be known.. so how do you rate him? If you want to showcase your talent search for big fights and that is in US. and 1 more thing, i never encounter JMM, PAC or any other top SOB calling themselves P4P champs.. Its only Floyd and Ricky who wants it badly and very vocal about it..

[Fenster]

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.

NONE of those count (apart from Pingpongshathispants). They have all fought in America or beaten a fighter with ties to America (that's what i meant by based, which i've already covered, so in future read the thread before posting - you plum )

The other day you said this regarding a lack of "name" recognition for small fighters like Lopez -

I just think overall the lower weight guys are assed out when it comes to ratings, paydays, status etc. etc. etc.

I'm thinking along the same lines.

The smaller guys get overlooked because they are not in glamour divisions. It doesn't mean they are not GREAT fighters though, right? Also the majority of smaller guys are non-American based, right? Coincidence?

The same goes for P4P ratings. Without a link to America it seems virtually impossible to be P4P rated (Ring).

Surely this highlights how useless P4P is considering only a select group, with ties to America, will ever get considered. Therefore they are useless when comparing fighters records

[HattonTheHammer]

ive always insisted theres been a biased for many years now on the rankings towards the littler fighters as opposed to the bigguns.

its quite natural a 126pounder will look technically better than a heavyweight because their is far more speed, punches thrown etc.

Doesnt mean though that every single guy below 135 that owns a world title deserves to jump straight over either klitschko brother just because he won it in dramatic fashion.


vic darchinyan is not a better fighter than Vitali Klitschko yet he`ll always be above him in the rankings because of the division he fights in

[Fenster]

ive always insisted theres been a biased for many years now on the rankings towards the littler fighters as opposed to the bigguns.

its quite natural a 126pounder will look technically better than a heavyweight because their is far more speed, punches thrown etc.

Doesnt mean though that every single guy below 135 that owns a world title deserves to jump straight over either klitschko brother just because he won it in dramatic fashion.

vic darchinyan is not a better fighter than Vitali Klitschko yet he`ll always be above him in the rankings because of the division he fights in

The heavyweight champ is meant to be the dominant force in all of boxing. In a real match Vitali would literally kill Darchinyan and Pac and Hatton etc. But in a mythical P4P scenario he wouldn't.

So it defeats the purpose to rate Heavyweights.

Although exceptional ones are P4P rated.


(what a load of bollocks this P4P really is )

[Rantcatrat]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

[Rantcatrat]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

[Mar]

The whole thing is bias and based on opinion...ask 20 people to give you thier pfp list and you'll get at least 18 different answers, so what ??

[SweetPea]

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

Kessler is a perfect example. If he had comeback from the Calzaghe loss and taken on legit dangerous opponents at 168 (and there are plenty of those guys), he would get some serious consideration for Top 10 PFP. Instead he's fighting stiffs.

[Rantcatrat]

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

It's hard for a fighter to avoid an american connection if you want be in the top ten p4p because so many of the best boxers have a connection with the United States. While I don't necessarily agree, your argument about John may be the exception. It is difficult to name another example.

Is there anything wrong with the American connection?

Ask yourself: if Erdei continues to fight without facing any american connected fighter, does he deserve to be in the top ten p4p? And on that note, how many examples can you name where that would be the case?

[Fenster]

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

It's hard for a fighter to avoid an american connection if you want be in the top ten p4p because so many of the best boxers have a connection with the United States. While I don't necessarily agree, your argument about John may be the exception. It is difficult to name another example.

Is there anything wrong with the American connection?

Ask yourself: if Erdei continues to fight without facing any american connected fighter, does he deserve to be in the top ten p4p? And on that note, how many examples can you name where that would be the case?

No.

But it does highlight a bias. Is that justifed considering the majority of big fights happen in the States? Probably yes. Maybe it also shows it's easier for Americans to get recognition? Or maybe the competition in America is far tougher than anywhere else?

Zsolt Erdei isn't good enough to be P4P. There's half-a-dozen light-heavyweights in front of him. Guys like Kessler, Hasegawa, Abraham have all shown top level form/skill. They lack the American-connected win though.

Where it starts to look inconsistent is here - I noticed Hopkins entered The Ring P4P in 1999 (according to a certain list posted). I thought it was after he beat Trinidad in 2001, which is perfectly understandable. But 1999 Hopkins had no MAJOR win. He must have been awarded the P4P spot for successfully defending his alphabet title. This is no different to plenty of non-American based alphabet holders, right? I wonder if Hopkins had been from a different continent whether this would have the case? Or maybe P4P was weak in 1999?

[Trainer Monkey]

When only 2 of the top 10 are currently American,Im not buying what your selling
3 are Mexican,is there a Mexican bias?
2 are British,a British bias perhaps?
Of course there's an American connection,this is where the big money fights happen

[Violent Demise]

Can someone tell me how many non-American based fighters have made The Ring P4P top 10 since 2000?

What has stopped current champions like Chris John, Hozumi Hasegawa and Kessler from entry?

Chris John has a win over current P4P no.2 Marquez. Now whether or not you think Marquez was "robbed," he officially LOST to John. MANY believe Hopkins was robbed against Taylor, this didn't stop Taylor from entering P4P. MANY believe Marquez beat Pacman twice.. this hasn't affected Pac's P4P standing. The OFFICIAL result is accepted.

John also has a win over Jose Rojas, a man that KO'd current P4P 10 ranked Celestino Caballero.

Help?

Chris John: Aside that his one big win was a gift. There's also the fact that he's only faced one elite fighter in over 40 career fights. Wins over shot once decent fighters Derrick Gainer and Jose Rojas are his biggest highlights. I'm shocked when ever I read that John is p4p or close to being a p4p fighter. How? The man ain't even p4p top 50. Let alone top 10.

Hozumi Hasegawa: His comp level is much better than John's. He's top 20. A win over another top fighter could put him in the top 10. Him and Anselmo Moreno should fight.

Mikkel Kessler: His biggest news since losing to Calzaghe was punking out of a very winnable fight against Edoson Miranda. To face some obscure fighter. You don't reward cowards.