Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[AdamGB]

I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.

It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.

If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.

So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.

I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".

A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".

When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?

In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”

Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)

So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*

Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.

When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?

I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.

Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.

Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his intention is.

I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.

(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

For me, its a bigger sacrifice to have to loose the extra 3 pounds than to gain them.

As it has been pointed out, the physical drain is the real sticking point for me.

[The Congressman]

Money is root of all evil. Cotto or any natural welter does'nt have to fight Pac if they feel they're being lured to a huge disadvantage.

[generalbulldog]

It's all about the money for Pac at this point, the same also applies to Floyd. Both of them have proven themselves, now they want to get paid. That's how capitalism works son.

[AdamGB]

Money is root of all evil. Cotto or any natural welter does'nt have to fight Pac if they feel they're being lured to a huge disadvantage.

Yes mate, I've said that that can and will be debated until the cows come home.

I imagine it's quite hard not to get lured in by roach when they have a giant golden carrot on a stick.

I just think that the 'what difference can/does/will a pound or two make' brigade need to either get clued up or jump off of a bridge.

It's all about the money for Pac at this point, the same also applies to Floyd. Both of them have proven themselves, now they want to get paid. That's how capitalism works son.

Kind of my point/opinion on Pac's current actions... Or was that aimed at "Asian Sensation"

[Kev]

I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.

It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.

If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.

So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.

I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".

A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".

When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?

In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”

Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)

So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*

Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.

When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?

I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.

Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.

Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his intention is.

I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.

(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)

You are talking about Mosely and in his case I agree, in his late thirties and fighting at 154 not long ago going under 147 would be too much of a risk.

But this is NOT the same with Cotto. Only a couple years ago he was world champion at 140 lbs. He weighed in against Clottey at 146 even.

Him dropping another pound or two is NOT a big deal. He's NOT a big welterweight, he's only 5 ft 7 and guys like Cintron, Williams, Margarito etc are huge compared to him.

NONE of the weight draining issues apply to Cotto coming down to 145 lbs to fight Pacquaio.

He's young, only in his twenties, was fighting at 140 not long ago and would have NO EXCUSE if he couldn't make 145 lbs giving that it is only one single pound less than he weighed in against Clottey.


This whole debate has been blown so far out of proportion its unbelievable. You guys are making as if Cotto walks around at 185 and his life would be at risk if he drops one pound from his current fighting weight of 146 lbs.

Just because Oscar couldn't make a fight of it weighing in at 142 lbs, a drop of 12 lbs in his late thirties at the end of his career isn't remotely the same as Cotto weighing in at ONE FREAKING POUND LESS.

When Hopkins knocked out Oscar weighing in at 158 lbs I don't rememeber an outcry about Oscar fighting a shell of a fighter who was weight drained and couldn't compete at such a low weight. No it was the reverse, Hopkins was seen as beating up on a smaller man.

It's all about hindsight. All of you 'knew' that Pacquaio fighting Oscar at 147 was a complete mismatch and that Manny was going to get slaughtered, just a sacrificial cash cow for Oscar to burn at his alter to Mammon and then when Oscar got KTFO you all 'knew' that it was because Manny had forced Oscar in his advancing years to drain his body to near death and Manny is just now a fighter who can only win unfairly.

You are all idiots, every fight is different, every opponent is different. Cotto was an undefeated world champion at 140 lbs only two years ago. He doesn't weigh in at the full 147 limit at welterweight anyway, him dropping another lb is not a big deal at all, but your Manny hating just blinds you to this obvious fact.

And I like how I get called a Pacquaio fanboy, I'm not even a big fan, I just think the criticism of him is frankly ludicrous.

[ElTerribleMorales]

I've been very vocal in criticising pac for what I feel is a blatant attempt to weight drain bigger fighters to take their edge off.

It's my opinion that they are too big for him (which is nothing to be ashamed of...), but unfortunately for Pac 147 is were the money lies and money is all that Pac is after now, he has done literally everything a fighter could do just about.

If it was about the achievement or respect then he would be moving up in weight properly, not chasing chasing the marquee names.

So how do you make money with these guys without getting out muscled? I think I've made my opinions on that clear over the last week or two.

I'm sure plenty of people can and will disagree with this but there is one thing I keep on hearing from people who clearly have very little knowledge of human physiology and a boxer's weight making process - "What difference will a pound or two make?".

A few posters including myself have challenged those 'informed opinions' and the likes of Bilbo and other pac fans have tried to react as if disagreeing is crazy. Being just some kid who posts on a message board I don't expect what I say to have a lot of weight... I can tell you that I've studied this or that... but so can somebody like "trainer Monkey".

When it comes straight out of Shane Mosley's mouth (a guy who will know more about training/boxing than me and anybody who would care to debate this with me combined) then maybe you should pay attention?

In my case, that’s a lot of weight to lose,” he said. “I previously fought at 154. Coming down to 147 can be a task. Then coming down even further, that is a real task. Even one pound makes a big difference.”

Mosley: Making catch weight to fight Pacquiao would take work
(he is also quoted in boxing Monthly as saying that he knows Roach is trying to weaken him bit he wants to make it happen)

So although Mosley would be determined to make it happen, he (a fighter who knows a thing or two about managing weight) knows how critical even a pound can be. Something to bear in mind the next time you ponder why they are happy to talk about fighting Oscar at 147 but not even 145 for Shane, who is smaller than Oscar... *hint, it has something to do with a smaller being able to go as low as a bigger man, but without getting drained, Roach sure knows how to pick them*

Like I've said I'm sure we can debate away about who deserves this weight or that weight, how much respect they are due... who's chasing who and who's holding the cards... whether fighters deserve it for coming in drained or what ever.
(for the record I feel that although I like Pacman he's only calling out the guys from 147 because they are the biggest names right now, he's asking for catch-weights because he knows they're too big... but he wants the PPV draw of fighting them before he retires)
One thing that I feel needs to be acknowledged though is that the majority of these guys are already down to the wire in terms of weight and even a pound or two can mess them up big time.

When Mosley is saying it regarding himself and Nazeem Richardson is saying it regarding Cotto surely it must be pretty hard for all but the elite trainers who (aren't) posting here to disagree?

I honestly feel that Pac's only intention of fighting these guys at catchweights is to get the marquee name whilst not being purely overpowered by them.

Right now Pac's fans are saying it's to make a fair fight bla bla bla but you know if he lost they'd be saying that the other guy was too big and that it wasn't a fair fight etc.

Saying that...
If a Cotto or a Mosely come and fight him at a catchweight and don't look drained like Oscar did and Pac puts on a good show then I'll give him his due... 100%. It may or may not end up that way I just feel like that is what his intention is.

I'm sure everything I'm saying regarding Pac's intentions and due credit can be disputed, it's my opinon and nothing more. I just think that the people saying "It's only a pound or two" deserve a good slap.

(and I appologise because I know this has been done to death, just found this article and thought I'd share it)

You are talking about Mosely and in his case I agree, in his late thirties and fighting at 154 not long ago going under 147 would be too much of a risk.

But this is NOT the same with Cotto. Only a couple years ago he was world champion at 140 lbs. He weighed in against Clottey at 146 even.

Him dropping another pound or two is NOT a big deal. He's NOT a big welterweight, he's only 5 ft 7 and guys like Cintron, Williams, Margarito etc are huge compared to him.

NONE of the weight draining issues apply to Cotto coming down to 145 lbs to fight Pacquaio.

He's young, only in his twenties, was fighting at 140 not long ago and would have NO EXCUSE if he couldn't make 145 lbs giving that it is only one single pound less than he weighed in against Clottey.

well but Pacquiao's not only asking for 145 anymore, he's asking for it to be at 143, and 3 lbs even at 28 is still a hard task to complete

[OumaFan]

I'm not going to go into the general argument again as its been done to death but 143 was just a report coming out of the camp, that could easily be a negotiating ploy, we'll see how it comes off. If Manny insists on making it 143 then he's pushing it too far and Cotto should turn it down. But Bilbo is right, there's always context, its one thing to ask Paul Williams or Antonio Margarito to come down to 145 and its another to ask Cotto. Shane being somewhere in between probably.

[Kev]

I also like how your source for this article was Shane Mosely, who proved beyond doubt it WAS possible to move down not a couple pounds but SEVEN in his late thirties and still become the welterweight king.

Anyway by your logic Cotto only beat Mosely because it was at 'catchweight'.

This is what makes me laugh. Oscar drops to 147 to fight Manny coming up from 135 and it's a 'catchweight' fight.


Mosely also drops to 147, just like Oscar, with the same number fights, same age, same battle scars, and fights Cotto and NOBODY talks about Mosely giving up weight at all. It's ok, because he looked good.

If Oscar fucked up his training and couldn't make the drop shame on Oscar.

It has NO bearing on a potential Pacquaio vs Cotto fight.

Manny vs Cotto is one of the best possible fights that can be made in all of boxing right now, yet you all continue to try and put obstacle in the way of it.

Look, they are both elite world class p4p fighters, yet Cotto is much bigger. Therefore under normal circumstances we don't get a fight. If a catchweight allows us to witness this great boxing event I'm all for it.

Would you scoff also at the idea of a Mayweather vs Paul Williams fight at 157 lbs? Would you moan about Floyd dragging Paul down 3 lbs from 160?

Of course not (well maybe you would) it would be a great fight and Floyd would be showing some serious balls to move up and fight the much bigger man.

You all have one rule for Manny and another for everybody else.

[generalbulldog]

I'm not a big Pacman fan, but the latest excuse why Pacman beat his latest foe was that he fought a fight while weight draining Ricky hatton. Because of Ricky Hatton's life style and ballooning up in weight it was an unfair even if it was at 140.

[AdamGB]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

[OumaFan]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he deserves absolutely no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his fanboyss would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift? They'd give him as much respect as they would if he were fighting as a real Welterweight and completely buy into this Marquee exercise he is giving them.

This has a massively simple answer: because he can.

Oscar called the shots in their fight because he's Oscar. The only reason he came down to 147 was that anything more than that was just out of the question for a guy moving up from 135. But overall he held the leverage like he always does because he's Oscar and he makes people rich. I'm sure Manny would have loved to fight him at 145, or 143, fuck 140 wouldn't have been bad but he didn't have the leverage to ask for that.

In a Cotto fight, he's the Oscar, he is the bigger draw, he will make Cotto a lot of money so he can set the terms. Whether its 145 or 143.

And by the way I'm not even broaching the subject of if its right or not. You can go all into the theory that he may want Cotto to drop farther because it will affect him more because Oscar was already cutting to make 147 whereas Cotto isn't but in the end its a bit irrelevant because Oscar would have chuckled if Pac had said 143 or nothing.

[OumaFan]

and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.

[Kev]

Of course it's possible bilbo...

he also says that losing even one pound can be a pretty big deal, something a lot of posters think for some reason is a ludicrous thing to say. You're right, we aren't just talking about Mosely, but a pound is a pound.

When does it become one pound too many? That is of course debatable to each individual boxers but the majority of pro-pac individuals won't even entertain the fact for any fighter at all.

You do have to ask yourself a few questions RE: Cotto though...

Such as why it was OK to ask for Oscar at 147 and end up fighting him at 145, but to ask for Cotto at not 147, not 145 but 143? You're right Cotto isn't a massive Welterweight (he was getting dropped like a bad habit at 140 by most fighters) smaller than Mosley and much smaller than Oscar, hence Roach having to ask for lower to improve the odds of taking Cotto's edge off.

Roach isn't stupid.

Nobody is saying it's going to turn him into a corpse etc Bilbo, but people talk about Pac as if he is Jesus, whiter than whiter and it seems pretty clear to me now that he is just in money making mode - Having gone as high in weight as he can go he just wants to fight the big names... who happen to be at 147... he doesn't give a shit about the achievement of Welterweight, I'm not knocking him for not being big enough for it... it would be nice for his fans to acknowledge that he's after names and PPV sales now, nothing more.

I'm not saying he desrves absolutly no respect for a win but if he were to beat Cotto his wants would give him 147%, even if he only deserves 143%, do you catchweight my drift?

When Mosely is talking about a pound being a pound he's coming from the perspective of already having lost seven. He was 154, then dropped seven pounds, now every further pound is significant.

Cotto hasn't dropped anything yet. He weighed in at 146 lbs in his last fight, so if it's an agreed weight of 145, or even 144 it's not that big a deal.

Certainly not for an elite athlete with a professional training team around him. If it's possible for Manny to work through 8 weight classes it should be possible for Cotto to drop a couple pounds to fight 4 or 5 lbs heavier than where he was at a couple years ago.

You talk about Pacquiao being whiter than white, I'd say he's the most maligned fighter in the sport.

So few people are willing to give him the full credit for what he has done and those that do are labelled fanboys.

Has there even been a single other fighter in history who has won world titles at flyweight and welterweight?

If not then why begrudge Manny trying to get Cotto to drop a couple pounds to give him a fighting chance to achieve what would be as far I can tell a truly unique acomplishment in the history of boxing, I certainly know of no other flyweight to welterweight world champs.

Manny beating Cotto at 145 is more impressive to me than Jones Jr beating Joh Ruiz at heavyweight. Ruiz didn't have to cut weight, but Jones cherry picked the weakest belt holder in recent years, a guy who he completely and hopelessly outclassed in talent, speed and skill.

Wouldn't have been more impressive had not Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but with the stipulation that Lewis weigh in say 8 lbs lighter than normal, so a weight limit of say 230 lbs?

Hell yeah, that would have been MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more impressive because Lewis was an ELITE fighter.

Cotto is an ELITE fighter, he's not just a paper champion. Manny isn't just moving up to fight a belt holder, he wants to fight the best that division has to offer.

Can you seriously imagine this criticism being labelled against ANY other fighter?

If Floyd agreed to fight Kelly Pavlik at 158 you wouldn't think that was a good fight, you wouldn't think Floyd was brave?

If Andre Ward decided to fight David Haye at 215 lbs you wouldn't be impressed with him?

How about if Joesph Agbeko followed up his win over Darchinyan by fighting Juan Manuel Marquez at a catchweight between superfeather and lightweight?

What Manny has achieved is amazing, and what he is trying to achieve still is also amazing.

You can't see the wood for the trees, you get so hung up on the incorrectness of catchweights you miss the fact that Manny is making boxing history, he's the most exciting fighter in the world, and this a poor kid from the Phillipines who used to have to use his hands to wipe his ass after a shit.

Just take your blinkers off for a second and enjoy what we have, a truly fantastic, exciting and humble fighter tearing through guys several weight classes above him and giving us boxing fans some truly memorable all time great performances.

When he's retired, everyone will be saying how great he was, so why not start now?

[Kev]

and of course he's all about names and money now. I don't dispute that at all, there comes a point in most elite guys careers when they're just not going to fight Timothy Bradley anymore, no offense to him. How much legacy plays into it is a mystery. I'm sure he's worried about his legacy but I tend to think for most guy's its money first.

Exactly and this is a point I made before. When you've already torn through several weight classes and won several world titles, you are no longer interested in weight classes and belts.

You want the best opposition, other elite champions who also have won multiple world titles and belts. If they happen to be in different weight classes then catchweight fights can bridge that gap.

I'm all for it, from now on I (and I'm sure Manny) don't care if he wins any more belts its all about beating the other superstars of the sport, making a fortune and making his name in boxing history.

The FIGHTERS are what make boxing, NOT the weight classes and the belts.