Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston

[Spicoli]

Could come down to the first bully blinking losses.Think once Tyson gets under his jab that speed of hand and stance would catch up to Liston for Tyson TKO.

[ross]

You would have had to have been something exeptional to beat the young Tyson and I dont think Frazier and foreman were, they got hit they werent very mobile and werent particularly quick, Tyson would been all over em, Foreman only defended the titles twice before losing it.

Ali had a will to win but he did have trouble with quick fighters who could move and throw more than one shot at a time, he would have also had to be more reserved in his punch output because of Mikes defence.

To be fair to Liston, he did beat Patterson easy who fought with the same technique as Mike but Patterson could probably have fought as a light heavy, Mike would have been a whole different proposition.

In Mikes defence against Ali, Ali himself has actually said something along the lines of patterson being the most skilled boxer he fought.

Its hard for me to defend Mike against Lewis and Holyfield but the Lewis that got beat around by Mercer and the Holyfield that Bert Cooper was smashing around both loose quick to a young Tyson

Out of all the fighters since Tysons heyday, I see Bowe giving him the most to think about, that man was skilled

[Zilla]

You know, this is what pisses me off about Mikes regard on all time lists, when you consider Mike at his best the Mike that beat Spinks, put him in with Liston, we see him winning, I also see him beating Frazier and Foreman, theyd have to be strong and move well, I dont see Mike not being able to beat Ali I mean alot of people put him down just because they dont like him but try imagining him bobing and weaving avoiding getting hit and throwing fast 3 and 4 shot combinations, theres not many boxers who could have coped with that and given enough back to justify a win, some may have survived to hear the final bell.

All you have to do is watch Mike against James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving. Neither man at the time would have matched Ali in his prime. Ali would have nailed Mike with the jab while leading him around the ring like a show dog. Even if Mike hit Ali with something and floored him early on, Ali would have gotten up and just continued blasting him with jabs until it got late, Mike slowed down and Ali didn't. It would have been a lopsided UD.

[Zilla]

You would have had to have been something exeptional to beat the young Tyson and I dont think Frazier and foreman were, they got hit they werent very mobile and werent particularly quick, Tyson would been all over em, Foreman only defended the titles twice before losing it.

Ali had a will to win but he did have trouble with quick fighters who could move and throw more than one shot at a time, he would have also had to be more reserved in his punch output because of Mikes defence.

To be fair to Liston, he did beat Patterson easy who fought with the same technique as Mike but Patterson could probably have fought as a light heavy, Mike would have been a whole different proposition.

In Mikes defence against Ali, Ali himself has actually said something along the lines of patterson being the most skilled boxer he fought.

Its hard for me to defend Mike against Lewis and Holyfield but the Lewis that got beat around by Mercer and the Holyfield that Bert Cooper was smashing around both loose quick to a young Tyson

Out of all the fighters since Tysons heyday, I see Bowe giving him the most to think about, that man was skilled

I can see Mike beating the younger version of Foreman simply because George didn't look that coordinated to me. He threw big punches and that's about it in my book. Frazier was hittable, that's why Geroge pulled the trigger on him. I could see Mike weaving around what George had to offer and blasting him to the body, then coming up to the head. As awkward as George's punches looked I imagine they would have been completely ineffective once Mike got inside. But the older version was much smarter, could absorb a lot of punishment and could have stretched it out until the later rounds where Mike was much less effective. A couple good 1-2s from him might have stopped Mike in his tracks.

[generalbulldog]

That's funny. Just because Tyson beats up an blownup Light heavyweight in Spinks, and that makes some people think he can beat prime Ali? 1 thing for sure Ali wouldn't be intimidated by Tyson's prefight stare or bullying antics. More than likely he makes fun of Tyson's high pitch voice and then whips him in the ring.

A prime Tyson vs a prime Ali wouldn't even be competitive. The only thing that would be interesting about such a fight is what Ali has to say about Tyson during the press conferences.

And hey if Tyson loses to Ali, his fans can say he was past his prime like the excuses they had when Buster Douglas beat him. Or maybe a long count excuse if he gets ko.

[ross]

James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

[Zilla]

James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

[ross]

James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

[Zilla]

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

[ross]

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

[rjj tszyu]

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Also look who Tyson was fighting in his prime. Nobodies. When he fought good names he got KTFO.

Back to this thread though, I really don't know which way to go. Probably Tyson!

[Zilla]

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

Ali may have gotten dropped, but did he look worse for wear after getting up? Tyson was GONE after Douglas knocked him down and all Buster had to do was clean up. It's not even about whose chin was better, I don't think Ali could have KO'd Tyson. I think he would have been happy to just outpoint him. Tyson could be intimidated. Any fighter who had answers for what he could do would befuddle him. Tyson thought he could throw one punch against Holyfield and then he would magically disappear. When Holyfield not only survived but began whaling on Mike he didn't know what to do with himself. Even in loss, when has anything like that ever happened to Ali? Truth is, both fighter would have given each other problems, but at the end of the day Ali would've solved the Tyson riddle, whereas, Tyson couldn't have solved the Ali one.

[ross]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

[Zilla]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

Well, I guess you got me. Ali was a completely mundane fighter. There's absolutely nothing significant about him and Mike would have just steamrolled him. Ali didn't have a better chin or speed and wasn't a master at getting inside of an opponent's head. Mike would have breathed and peeled the skin off Ali's chest before punching a hole in him and then shaking the Ali carcass off his arm, flinging it into the crowd.

[ICB]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

A prime Mike Tyson would of lost to Tony Tucker, had he not of broke his hand after the 4th round. He was also lucky he scored a flash knockdown against James Tillis, who was having his best round of the fight. And probably would of earnt a draw had it not been for that.