Undefeated

[Spicoli]

I tend to speculate a deal over undefeated records.Glossy numbers can be very over rated and misleading on the surface and its not until you delve into the particulars that you get the story.Anyone can pad a record like a high school prom queen but that doesn't mean they have solid skills.Fighters face and over come adversity in many forms...alot of 'clean' records tend to have debatable wins and adverse circumstances.You dont learn or know shit if everything goes your way and you have no struggle in general.Even the announcers get caught up in it...pampering some guys when they announce them "and with one disputed loss" etc.Puff

[Majesty]

but shouldnt be undefeated cos castillo beat him 1st time

Every undefeated fighter has a fight people thought they should have lost. The differences they all don't rematch the same guy a few months later and beat them easily.

[Drago]

marciano apparently lost an early pro fight?

[Hunter]

I think an undefeated record actually holds back fighters from acheiving everything they could because they are afraid to lose the 0. A prime example is Mayweather, maybe if he didnt get the decision against castillo he gets pissed off, ditches his crappy careful first style and fights Hatton when he moves up to 140, KOs him, than moves up to 147 and proceeds to fight margarito and cotto. Mayweather would have probably beat them all and would have gotten a ton of respect and been on alot of peoples short lists of ATG. BUT he didnt and that is why people dont give him any respect......

I would say most people rate Pacquaio higher on their ATG list than Mayweather.

[fan johnny]

in boxing a perfect record means alot but in away i feel that an undefeated fighter is more up for debate than say a fighter who has lost but comeback & won a rematch.

marciano
mayweather
calzaghe
sven ottke

as apposed to fighters who lost & came back to avenge loss

lennox lewis

or fighters who fought the best there was out there

ali
frazier
foreman
holyfield
hagler
hearns
Sugar ray robbinson
sugar ray leonard

i feel there is just to much emphasis on undefeated fighters, as if its the end of the world that they lost

The groups of fighter listed get different kinds of respect. They are no questions that need to be answered about the later group.

[Kev]

in boxing a perfect record means alot but in away i feel that an undefeated fighter is more up for debate than say a fighter who has lost but comeback & won a rematch.

marciano
mayweather
calzaghe
sven ottke

as apposed to fighters who lost & came back to avenge loss

lennox lewis

or fighters who fought the best there was out there

ali
frazier
foreman
holyfield
hagler
hearns
Sugar ray robbinson
sugar ray leonard

i feel there is just to much emphasis on undefeated fighters, as if its the end of the world that they lost

I disagree with this really. Yes there is a desire for fighters to protect their 0 and remain unbeaten.

But no undefeated fighter is overrated by the fans or experts, on the contrary Mayweather, Marciano, Calzaghe and Ottke are four of the most underated fighters by the majority.

Floyd is absolutely an all time great, one of the best ever but people won't give him his credit, Calzaghe just got the big fights when they shot is the general view, Marciano fought in a weak era and Ottke is a terrible fighter who should have lost half a dozen times and had an awful padded record.

Those are the stories we are told are about all these guys, and how they couldn't compete with the other guys in your list, who all lost fights and had life and death battles with illustrious opponents.

I tend to disagree, I think all of them would have done rather better against the all time elite than most seem to think.

[DaxxKahn]

Depends on the make up of the fighter - it crushes some and is the making of others.

It can also endear a fighter to the fans - look at Eubank hated by so many when undefeated yet gained so many fans in losing efforts against Thompson.

Fans are a fickle lot.

Thats because in his losing efforts he showed what he was REALLY made of...He erased doubts and showed he is a fighter not just a guy who can win fights BIG BIG BIG difference...

[DaxxKahn]

The undefeated record like anything is not so much subject to criticism due to the record but what is on it. I mean in truth ANYTHING that looks to be so good is always in question be it boxing or jewlery...As the saying goes if it looks to good to be true it must be....

Examine the records that are being hit or have been hit with much criticism over time....I am assuming this debate is based on undefeated fighters who have garnered titles and some world recognition since names like PBF, RM, etc were mentioned in the first post...I see someone mentioned Calzaghe before we will use him as an example..Before hand keep this in mind..

Now as with any elite fighter you allow a certain amount of fights before you start even daring to make comments on their records...Depending on the fighters amateur career....Olympians, top rated national champions, former GG standouts or any fighter with over 100 amateur fights with a good record...That amount of fights is usually about 10-12 (depending on the fighter but a good trainer gives it about that time to make sure the kinks are out) since all they are doing is getting used to pro scoring, adjusted to no headgear and smaller gloves...Most have pretty much done this in the gym and continue to work on it in training so it is a short window...These guys have 200 300 400 rounds in already so being in front of crowds, means zip as far as nerves go....


Joe Calzaghe 46-0 (32)....Two division world champion
WBO SMW 1997-2007, IBF SMW 2006-2007, WBA 2007. Ring Magazine SMW champion 2005-2008......Ring Magazine LHW Champion 2008-Ret

Best wins on record.
Chris Eubank..Robin Reid...Omar Sheika....Byron Mitchell...Mario Veit...Jeff Lacy...Sakio Bika...Mikkel Kessler..Roy Jones...Bernard Hopkins...

If you judge by what I explained above you take his 46-0 and bring it to 34-0.....After that look at the fighters he faced to garner his shot at the Belt..Luciano Torres, Tyler Hughes, Carlos Christie...regardless of records they were needed to give him to points to qualify for the fight Vs Eubanks for the vacant belt...Now we are on a record of 31-0....

Minus mandatory fights or stay busy fights such as the Will McIntyre's, Mkrtchayn's and Jimenez's....All nobodies but at the time had good records with only 1 or 2 losses on it...That brings us to about 25-0......

Then you take the old timers still hanging on that have a name and a win or loss are both OK (The win must be by domination and the loss must not be a blow out and you must have been game) because if you lose it was to a one time top phenom on his last days who had that one good fight left (EG- Hopkins win over Pavlik)...

Calzaghe really only has Brewer on it but in most cases guys have 2 or 3 so we will pretend and bring the record now to 23-0......

Now the important fights...The other champions either current at the time of the fight, recently dethroned but not brutally and have at least 5 or 6 more winning bouts after if they lose or ones that win a title shortly after the loss...

Calzaghe has Veit, Reid, Mitchell, Eubank, Lacy...Wins that can not be put into question because they were the cream of the crop, the test that needed to be answered or fights that were needed at the moment to stay legit in the public eye...PLUS they were qualified opp...So now the record is at 18-0....

The you take the fight with Kessler who was considered Joe's biggest threat and a fighter who many felt would win....Joe won now we are at 17-0....

Take the Hopkins fight who though past it was the LHW Ring champion...AND in the top 5 P4P at the time....Now Joe's record in question is at 16-0....

Let the Jones fight go because that was not meant to be considered part of his legacy it was more or less settling old business that never was handled...It was also a fight fans wanted to see and NO ONE with 2 cents of boxing knowledge considered relevant to the sport ratings wise etc...so now we are at 15-0....

Minus quality contenders at the time he faced them Bika, Sheika, Manfredo (Kind of)...Fighters whop were never elite but have been B opp and given many a world champion or other top contenders the toughest times of their careers...or at minimum are known for being tough durable guys and the record is at 12-0...

That leaves 12 questionable fights....add a bit of what was mandatory what was to keep busy etc that all fighters have and you go down to about 8-0...

Could the record be more packed with big names yes...But Joe did not fight as many bad fighters as people like to make out...Also he fought who was avail and did not fight only a certain few guys like Hopkins and Jones when the fans wanted but then again While they were the big names here he was on the other side of the pond so like they would not give to travel neither would he..;Both sides at fault and the fight not happening sooner could be blamed on both for avoiding...

Breaking down the careers can be done with all fighters and before you blast them really break it down...Also think of guys like

JCC SR who was fighting guys with records like 2-16 while he was 65-0 and a world champion....Guys like PBF who with his 40-0 and yes he beat many a great fighter choose carefully who and when the right time was to fight them like a jackal looking for wounded lions...Yeah they beat the lion but the lion was not really able to defend himself....Roy Jones is another one who spent many years at 175 doing so when better fights were available....All did this before they lost the 0....

But in the end regardless of who the fighter is any Elite fighter or long time champion has the 0 it may look like the record is more padded then what it is but you take out the gimmes, the mandatories, the early career ignores and base the rest on

1. top contenders they defended against and their past record and what they did after....

2. Other champions they fought and at what point was that champion at when they fought them

3. Who else was available for them to fight during that time frame that they choose not to because they did not want to "RISK" the loss....

4. Give a few payday allows then break down the rest...In the end there are only 5-10 fights to really decode on is the fighter was over rated or a ducker....

Does anyone think that if the 1960's and 70's HW division was not so strong Ali would have the resume he does?....There was no choice but to fight Liston, Chuvalo, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc...or retire....Even the lower guys like Quarry, copper, Tirrell were tough as shit....Believe me today he would have had some Minto's, Gomez and Sosnowskis on his record for sure....

[Violent Demise]

dude, you just mentioned SVEN OTTKE in the same sentence as mayweather, marciano and calzaghe

Calzaghe being put in the same breathe as Mayweather is equally unjustified.

Caslzaghe being mention in the same breath as Ottke is the most unjustified of all.

[JonesJrMayweather]

The undefeated record like anything is not so much subject to criticism due to the record but what is on it. I mean in truth ANYTHING that looks to be so good is always in question be it boxing or jewlery...As the saying goes if it looks to good to be true it must be....

Examine the records that are being hit or have been hit with much criticism over time....I am assuming this debate is based on undefeated fighters who have garnered titles and some world recognition since names like PBF, RM, etc were mentioned in the first post...I see someone mentioned Calzaghe before we will use him as an example..Before hand keep this in mind..

Now as with any elite fighter you allow a certain amount of fights before you start even daring to make comments on their records...Depending on the fighters amateur career....Olympians, top rated national champions, former GG standouts or any fighter with over 100 amateur fights with a good record...That amount of fights is usually about 10-12 (depending on the fighter but a good trainer gives it about that time to make sure the kinks are out) since all they are doing is getting used to pro scoring, adjusted to no headgear and smaller gloves...Most have pretty much done this in the gym and continue to work on it in training so it is a short window...These guys have 200 300 400 rounds in already so being in front of crowds, means zip as far as nerves go....


Joe Calzaghe 46-0 (32)....Two division world champion
WBO SMW 1997-2007, IBF SMW 2006-2007, WBA 2007. Ring Magazine SMW champion 2005-2008......Ring Magazine LHW Champion 2008-Ret

Best wins on record.
Chris Eubank..Robin Reid...Omar Sheika....Byron Mitchell...Mario Veit...Jeff Lacy...Sakio Bika...Mikkel Kessler..Roy Jones...Bernard Hopkins...

If you judge by what I explained above you take his 46-0 and bring it to 34-0.....After that look at the fighters he faced to garner his shot at the Belt..Luciano Torres, Tyler Hughes, Carlos Christie...regardless of records they were needed to give him to points to qualify for the fight Vs Eubanks for the vacant belt...Now we are on a record of 31-0....

Minus mandatory fights or stay busy fights such as the Will McIntyre's, Mkrtchayn's and Jimenez's....All nobodies but at the time had good records with only 1 or 2 losses on it...That brings us to about 25-0......

Then you take the old timers still hanging on that have a name and a win or loss are both OK (The win must be by domination and the loss must not be a blow out and you must have been game) because if you lose it was to a one time top phenom on his last days who had that one good fight left (EG- Hopkins win over Pavlik)...

Calzaghe really only has Brewer on it but in most cases guys have 2 or 3 so we will pretend and bring the record now to 23-0......

Now the important fights...The other champions either current at the time of the fight, recently dethroned but not brutally and have at least 5 or 6 more winning bouts after if they lose or ones that win a title shortly after the loss...

Calzaghe has Veit, Reid, Mitchell, Eubank, Lacy...Wins that can not be put into question because they were the cream of the crop, the test that needed to be answered or fights that were needed at the moment to stay legit in the public eye...PLUS they were qualified opp...So now the record is at 18-0....

The you take the fight with Kessler who was considered Joe's biggest threat and a fighter who many felt would win....Joe won now we are at 17-0....

Take the Hopkins fight who though past it was the LHW Ring champion...AND in the top 5 P4P at the time....Now Joe's record in question is at 16-0....

Let the Jones fight go because that was not meant to be considered part of his legacy it was more or less settling old business that never was handled...It was also a fight fans wanted to see and NO ONE with 2 cents of boxing knowledge considered relevant to the sport ratings wise etc...so now we are at 15-0....

Minus quality contenders at the time he faced them Bika, Sheika, Manfredo (Kind of)...Fighters whop were never elite but have been B opp and given many a world champion or other top contenders the toughest times of their careers...or at minimum are known for being tough durable guys and the record is at 12-0...

That leaves 12 questionable fights....add a bit of what was mandatory what was to keep busy etc that all fighters have and you go down to about 8-0...

Could the record be more packed with big names yes...But Joe did not fight as many bad fighters as people like to make out...Also he fought who was avail and did not fight only a certain few guys like Hopkins and Jones when the fans wanted but then again While they were the big names here he was on the other side of the pond so like they would not give to travel neither would he..;Both sides at fault and the fight not happening sooner could be blamed on both for avoiding...

Breaking down the careers can be done with all fighters and before you blast them really break it down...Also think of guys like

JCC SR who was fighting guys with records like 2-16 while he was 65-0 and a world champion....Guys like PBF who with his 40-0 and yes he beat many a great fighter choose carefully who and when the right time was to fight them like a jackal looking for wounded lions...Yeah they beat the lion but the lion was not really able to defend himself....Roy Jones is another one who spent many years at 175 doing so when better fights were available....All did this before they lost the 0....

But in the end regardless of who the fighter is any Elite fighter or long time champion has the 0 it may look like the record is more padded then what it is but you take out the gimmes, the mandatories, the early career ignores and base the rest on

1. top contenders they defended against and their past record and what they did after....

2. Other champions they fought and at what point was that champion at when they fought them

3. Who else was available for them to fight during that time frame that they choose not to because they did not want to "RISK" the loss....

4. Give a few payday allows then break down the rest...In the end there are only 5-10 fights to really decode on is the fighter was over rated or a ducker....

Does anyone think that if the 1960's and 70's HW division was not so strong Ali would have the resume he does?....There was no choice but to fight Liston, Chuvalo, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc...or retire....Even the lower guys like Quarry, copper, Tirrell were tough as shit....Believe me today he would have had some Minto's, Gomez and Sosnowskis on his record for sure....

Still to this day believe everyone except Ali and Foreman on that list are overrated as are many of the pre 90's so called great fighters...

[Drago]

The undefeated record like anything is not so much subject to criticism due to the record but what is on it. I mean in truth ANYTHING that looks to be so good is always in question be it boxing or jewlery...As the saying goes if it looks to good to be true it must be....

Examine the records that are being hit or have been hit with much criticism over time....I am assuming this debate is based on undefeated fighters who have garnered titles and some world recognition since names like PBF, RM, etc were mentioned in the first post...I see someone mentioned Calzaghe before we will use him as an example..Before hand keep this in mind..

Now as with any elite fighter you allow a certain amount of fights before you start even daring to make comments on their records...Depending on the fighters amateur career....Olympians, top rated national champions, former GG standouts or any fighter with over 100 amateur fights with a good record...That amount of fights is usually about 10-12 (depending on the fighter but a good trainer gives it about that time to make sure the kinks are out) since all they are doing is getting used to pro scoring, adjusted to no headgear and smaller gloves...Most have pretty much done this in the gym and continue to work on it in training so it is a short window...These guys have 200 300 400 rounds in already so being in front of crowds, means zip as far as nerves go....


Joe Calzaghe 46-0 (32)....Two division world champion
WBO SMW 1997-2007, IBF SMW 2006-2007, WBA 2007. Ring Magazine SMW champion 2005-2008......Ring Magazine LHW Champion 2008-Ret

Best wins on record.
Chris Eubank..Robin Reid...Omar Sheika....Byron Mitchell...Mario Veit...Jeff Lacy...Sakio Bika...Mikkel Kessler..Roy Jones...Bernard Hopkins...

If you judge by what I explained above you take his 46-0 and bring it to 34-0.....After that look at the fighters he faced to garner his shot at the Belt..Luciano Torres, Tyler Hughes, Carlos Christie...regardless of records they were needed to give him to points to qualify for the fight Vs Eubanks for the vacant belt...Now we are on a record of 31-0....

Minus mandatory fights or stay busy fights such as the Will McIntyre's, Mkrtchayn's and Jimenez's....All nobodies but at the time had good records with only 1 or 2 losses on it...That brings us to about 25-0......

Then you take the old timers still hanging on that have a name and a win or loss are both OK (The win must be by domination and the loss must not be a blow out and you must have been game) because if you lose it was to a one time top phenom on his last days who had that one good fight left (EG- Hopkins win over Pavlik)...

Calzaghe really only has Brewer on it but in most cases guys have 2 or 3 so we will pretend and bring the record now to 23-0......

Now the important fights...The other champions either current at the time of the fight, recently dethroned but not brutally and have at least 5 or 6 more winning bouts after if they lose or ones that win a title shortly after the loss...

Calzaghe has Veit, Reid, Mitchell, Eubank, Lacy...Wins that can not be put into question because they were the cream of the crop, the test that needed to be answered or fights that were needed at the moment to stay legit in the public eye...PLUS they were qualified opp...So now the record is at 18-0....

The you take the fight with Kessler who was considered Joe's biggest threat and a fighter who many felt would win....Joe won now we are at 17-0....

Take the Hopkins fight who though past it was the LHW Ring champion...AND in the top 5 P4P at the time....Now Joe's record in question is at 16-0....

Let the Jones fight go because that was not meant to be considered part of his legacy it was more or less settling old business that never was handled...It was also a fight fans wanted to see and NO ONE with 2 cents of boxing knowledge considered relevant to the sport ratings wise etc...so now we are at 15-0....

Minus quality contenders at the time he faced them Bika, Sheika, Manfredo (Kind of)...Fighters whop were never elite but have been B opp and given many a world champion or other top contenders the toughest times of their careers...or at minimum are known for being tough durable guys and the record is at 12-0...

That leaves 12 questionable fights....add a bit of what was mandatory what was to keep busy etc that all fighters have and you go down to about 8-0...

Could the record be more packed with big names yes...But Joe did not fight as many bad fighters as people like to make out...Also he fought who was avail and did not fight only a certain few guys like Hopkins and Jones when the fans wanted but then again While they were the big names here he was on the other side of the pond so like they would not give to travel neither would he..;Both sides at fault and the fight not happening sooner could be blamed on both for avoiding...

Breaking down the careers can be done with all fighters and before you blast them really break it down...Also think of guys like

JCC SR who was fighting guys with records like 2-16 while he was 65-0 and a world champion....Guys like PBF who with his 40-0 and yes he beat many a great fighter choose carefully who and when the right time was to fight them like a jackal looking for wounded lions...Yeah they beat the lion but the lion was not really able to defend himself....Roy Jones is another one who spent many years at 175 doing so when better fights were available....All did this before they lost the 0....

But in the end regardless of who the fighter is any Elite fighter or long time champion has the 0 it may look like the record is more padded then what it is but you take out the gimmes, the mandatories, the early career ignores and base the rest on

1. top contenders they defended against and their past record and what they did after....

2. Other champions they fought and at what point was that champion at when they fought them

3. Who else was available for them to fight during that time frame that they choose not to because they did not want to "RISK" the loss....

4. Give a few payday allows then break down the rest...In the end there are only 5-10 fights to really decode on is the fighter was over rated or a ducker....

Does anyone think that if the 1960's and 70's HW division was not so strong Ali would have the resume he does?....There was no choice but to fight Liston, Chuvalo, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc...or retire....Even the lower guys like Quarry, copper, Tirrell were tough as shit....Believe me today he would have had some Minto's, Gomez and Sosnowskis on his record for sure....

very good & thought out post