'Sitting down' on your punches

[God.in.my.corner]

What is your definition of 'sitting down' on your punches? I have heard several different defintions. Also what about any insight on the importance of this, and any training ideas to improve it?

[HerbM]

God.in.my.corner, you sure do ask a lot of good questions -- even when I (thin that I) know (part of) the answer they are almost always questions that I have wanted to hear answered, or else should have asked.

My understanding is that this is directly related to power by being the best or at least a good way to maintain balance as you impact.

We must in some way deal Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions; when we exert force on another (or the bag) WE are going to be forced back as much as we transmit force to him -- there is no way out of this, but there are several ways to deal with it.

To be clear, this doesn't mean we must GO BACK, only that there is a force applied to us in the opposite direction of the force we transmit.

Here are a few ways to deal with the force on us, some are better than others, some work better in some situations, and some can be combined:

• Actually move or lean backwards. Obviously, leaning backwards is usually a poor idea, but there are times, usually when pushing off rather than punching, that we want to move backwards as much as move the other person away (e.g., to just get some distance), so using the counter force to push OURSELVES off can be of some (limited?) value.
• Move forward with the punch -- the force still applies to us, but it STOPS our forwards motion rather than actually sending us to the rear. The most obvious problem with this is that we can 'run into HIS punch' and then we are impacted by not only his punch but our own forward momentum adds to it. This doesn't mean it is never used, but it must be used with great caution, care and correct timing and balance.
• Add forward forces ONLY at the time of the punch -- I mean here we don't try to move forward, but only as the punch lands we add something ELSE that WOULD have given us a forward motion, but since we meet that counter force the net result is little or know actual movement in either direction. Ideally the extra force just balances out and we remain "in balance" without having to move forward or back.
• Absorb the force using our muscles, tendons, and ligaments to act as springs -- the overall counter force is the same but the spring action lets us absorb and dissipate it over a longer time and disperse it with more control.
• Translate it into another direction -- either rotation or from our arm turn it towards the ground; this is actually more complicate and done one or more of the other methods, muscles as springs, leaning, or applying another force.

The recommendation for sitting into the punch is about AVOIDING the lean while using gravity and muscle elasticity to turn the horizontal force at the arm/shoulder into a more or less vertical force that can be absorbed by the body, especially the legs, and dissipated into the ground -- friction with the ground also plays a role here.

So we "sit" to avoid leaning; to keep the balance point over the middle of the stance or even a bit to the rear.

The sit not only avoids the lean, it uses the elasticity of our muscles and connective tissue (especially at knees and hips) to turn those forces from horizontal to vertical (dissipating them into the ground and by friction).

Dempsey's drop step is about adding another force (and maybe some momentum if you actually step forward) by using gravity asymmetrically (more on the front foot when you briefly remove it's support from the ground.)

The shoulder whirl (Dempsey describes this too but generally prefers the drop step) using TURNING motion not only to add to the forward impact but to translate between linear (front/back) forces and rotational forces.

Pushing with your back toe and turning the foot for the power hand is another method for adding forward momentum and absorbing the counter force.

Another POSSIBLE use for sitting down is to invoke gravity to create more forces using gravity (from the ground to the opponent and with the counter force back to the ground) -- this is usually done using rotation by having the front knee forward position causing the body to TURN to the inside of your lead hand (only works as I am describing it for the lead hand) -- if you put one foot forward and experiment with "dropping" at the knees (try to get that feeling of FALLING for just a brief part of a second) you will find that the front knee will tend to pull your forward hip forward (rotation) and this get added to the punch if timed correctly, and when you recover you absorb the counter force by using the elasticity of your muscular-skeletal system to rotate back rather than being pushed off balance to the rear.

Tai Chi frequently uses such tricks, and Bruce Lee's (true) 1-inch punch was working largely through this method.

I hope the above makes sense, is useful, and that I didn't mangle it too much by typing it in quickly off the top of my head.

And let's hope we get some really good descriptions and explanations of why it is important from the experts....

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HerbM

[jameso'hara]

I check the forum regularly for new posts and had hoped that somebody more learned than I would contribute further to this thread. I hope I don't take this off topic.

So, in an attempt to get the momentum going again.

I experience little breakthroughs with technique and skill building. Due to being a novice with much to learn and because I experiment and analyse a lot. This occurs frequently.
I recently have only just grasped the fundamental contribution to my punching power and speed that pushing off the floor gives me. Not the half-hearted cursory push I have been guilty of but the fully committed both feet style thrust. I relate this to the physical feeling I get when skipping rope. It all begins with the floor. I've read that many times and didn't really grasp it fully until very recently. Strangely, I learnt that by getting in to my stance in front of a wall and feeling the difference in weight and force I could push into the wall with the open palms of my hand. Moving onto shadowboxing I found my hands were propelled much faster.

At the moment I relate to "sitting down" on my punches as the moment when gravity acts on my weight at the same time the punch lands. I think of it as a result of the feet pushing.

Still getting there obviously. Somebody help please.

Gosh, I just reread what Herb wrote and feel he said it much more elequently and comprehensively.

[Scrap]

Its all starts with the feet and knees, Hips have very little to do with it. Work on the idea Heels up Knees down, with the ears above the Coxxys, your centre of gravity always keep that line.

[HerbM]

I check the forum regularly for new posts and had hoped that somebody much more learned than I would contribute further to this thread. I hope I don't take this off topic.

So, in an attempt to get the momentum going again.

I experience little breakthroughs with technique and skill building. Due to being a novice with much to learn and because I experiment and analyse a lot, this occurs frequently.
I recently have only just grasped the fundamental contribution to my punching power and speed that pushing off the floor gives me. I relate this to the physical feeling I get when skipping rope. It all begins with the floor. I've read that many times and didn't really grasp it fully. Strangely, I learnt that by getting in to my stance in front of a wall and feeling the difference in weight and force I could push into the wall with the open palms of my hand. Moving onto shadowboxing I found my hands were propelled much faster.

At the moment I relate to "sitting down" on my punches as the moment when gravity acts on my weight at the same time the punch lands. I think of it as a result of the feet pushing.

Still getting there obviously. Somebody help please.

Gosh, I just reread what Herb wrote and feel he said it much more elequently and comprehensively.

I understand the desire to get some useful conversation going on a topic of interest -- I get that feeling quite often myself -- but you seem to be making good progress and have a handle on it so there might not be much to add.

Thanks for the compliment as well -- not sure what I wrote was very "eloquent" but I did try for some level of completeness and worked for clarity (whether it shows or not.)

You might want to try the wall exercise with each of the types of force generators and dissipators that I listed and get a feel for where you get the most pressure and how it affects your balance etc.

For instance, I think you will be (a bit) surprised to see how standing in a normal boxing stance and pressing with the forward hand (like a jab) that when you drop at the knees just a little it will turn your body and press the hand into the wall....

Maybe it won't help much, but it will only take a few minutes to run through the list.

--
HerbM

[Dadi Astthorsson]

Posterior chain. From the bottom of the feet to the crown of the head and vice versa.

[jahmez]

Never really understood what people mean by sitting down on your punches. I just picture Cotto hitting the mits.

[jameso'hara]

Upweighting?

[cambay411]

When i throw for power it helps me if i dip the knee of whatever hand i throw with. For example if i throw a straight right (in an orthadox stance) i dip my rear knee, at the same exact time im pushing with my legs as well. I guess it sounds kind of wierd. Its almost two motions at once but for me its smooth and i get alot of power. If anyone can explain this better help me out. For me the sitting down on your punches would be the dipping of the knees.

[cambay411]

To be more general i would say that someone that does not sit down on there punches is throwing arm punches. On the other hand, someone who does sit down on their punches is using there legs, hips and core body in the proper ways to get the most power from their punches.

[HerbM]

To be more general i would say that someone that does not sit down on there punches is throwing arm punches. On the other hand, someone who does sit down on their punches is using there legs, hips and core body in the proper ways to get the most power from their punches.

Back to the original question here:

Since you used the phrase as a necessary component of generating maximum power, what definition are you using for this phrase "sitting down [their] punches"?

Cambay, you might have a better understanding and definition of the phrase to get us all thinking about the same thing....


Also a minor point: Couldn't one being turning without lowering, and therefore using hips, core, or shoulders?

--
HerbM

[HerbM]

When i throw for power it helps me if i dip the knee of whatever hand i throw with. For example if i throw a straight right (in an orthadox stance) i dip my rear knee, at the same exact time im pushing with my legs as well. I guess it sounds kind of wierd. Its almost two motions at once but for me its smooth and i get alot of power. If anyone can explain this better help me out. For me the sitting down on your punches would be the dipping of the knees.

Seems to work for the front hand, but would you really do this for a rear (power) hand strike, i.e., dip the rear knee?

Are you unweighting the rear leg here, or perhaps fully unweighting the front leg and sinking into the back one (that makes sense but then both 'knees' would be flexing [slightly])?

If so, please try to explain and elaborate, or maybe their is another source for this you can point out...?

[cambay411]

When i throw for power it helps me if i dip the knee of whatever hand i throw with. For example if i throw a straight right (in an orthadox stance) i dip my rear knee, at the same exact time im pushing with my legs as well. I guess it sounds kind of wierd. Its almost two motions at once but for me its smooth and i get alot of power. If anyone can explain this better help me out. For me the sitting down on your punches would be the dipping of the knees.

Seems to work for the front hand, but would you really do this for a rear (power) hand strike, i.e., dip the rear knee?

Are you unweighting the rear leg here, or perhaps fully unweighting the front leg and sinking into the back one (that makes sense but then both 'knees' would be flexing [slightly])?

If so, please try to explain and elaborate, or maybe their is another source for this you can point out...?

Good question herb, thinking more into this i would say the dip in the knee for a straight right (orthadox) helps me transfer most of my wieght to my front foot while at the exact same time push with the balls of my foot on my rear foot. I also use the shift in energy to transfer power from side to side with my hips which also flows up threw my core and shoulders and finally my fist (hope that makes since lol). A better description of the motion i think is when throwing a right uppercut. Transfer wieght to front leg, dip the knee, twist the body and land the punch in one motion.

[HerbM]

...
Good question herb, thinking more into this i would say the dip in the knee for a straight right (orthadox) helps me transfer most of my wieght to my front foot while at the exact same time push with the balls of my foot on my rear foot. I also use the shift in energy to transfer power from side to side with my hips which also flows up threw my core and shoulders and finally my fist (hope that makes since lol). A better description of the motion i think is when throwing a right uppercut. Transfer wieght to front leg, dip the knee, twist the body and land the punch in one motion.

Ok. My coach would have me doing push-ups in the hundreds if I transferred most of my weight to my front foot.

I can sometimes get away with taking the weight OFF my front foot and transferring a good bit of that to my STRIKING hand (the rest goes temporarily to the rear foot) for just a 1/4 of a second during the impact -- this is what I understand from reading Dempsey.

As for doing this during an uppercut, I really don't understand that, since I am trying to drive up by straightening my already bent knees during the punch. For the uppercut I want my shoulder to get HIGHER with my body driving as my fist makes contact.

Just saying....

--
HerbM

[Scrap]

Your front Heel is your Biomechanical break,your Hip cannot turn without assistance from the back leg, cant happen. The Drive comes from the abductors of the back leg which give drive and direction. If the Head moves balance is lost and you finnish up on the front foot, the break. Now that is where the adductors on the front leg come in to play bending the knee and lifting the foot at the same time as the back foot is doing its thing. Giving Oral stability, the Head stays where it is Balanced to Orchastrate movement