James Toney v Randy Couture

[generalbulldog]

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

Well there are people that take vacations outside of their country and when people vacation they might talk to the locals that can converse with them about a myriad of topics such as politics, economics, local culture, and yes, even sports.

Well here's the thing. First, MMA fans are saying that their sport is the no. 1 most preferred combat sport in the world because it's "real" or whatever, when in my travels it is not. I've only been to a few countries like in East Asia, in Japan and China it's not MMA that is the king sport or no. 1 combat sport. Second, I've heard repeatedly that this sport is growing so rapidly it's almost on the level of soccer. I'm a skeptical person and would like to know which part of the world and is that true? Can it be corroborated and proven with facts and data? Or is it just from the mouth of Dana and his fans that I'm suppose to take it as fact? Like I've said, when I traveled to Japan late last year I heard that a Flyweight championship boxing fight was 1 of the most watched television event, I had to know if it was true and lo and behold I had articles pointing this out that it did a 43% rating and peaking at 52%. If boxing was dead and wasn't cared for in that country and MMA was the no. 1 combat sport there as people have said, then why is a boxing match the most watched combat sporting event in say 46 years and was 1 of the most watched for it's history?

I can to question things, hell logical human beings tend to. But to each their own. MMA is not my cup of tea, maybe it is for you.

[ralph]

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

Asians don't give a shit about MMA? They like their martal arts in Asia.

K-1 is a world-wide kickboxing promotion based in Tokyo, Japan founded by Kazuyoshi Ishii, a former Kyokushin karate practitioner, and owned by the Fighting and Entertainment Group (FEG), who organize combat sport events in Japan, and around the world, that include events by the mixed martial arts promotion Dream. K-1 combines stand up techniques from Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, Savate, San Shou, Kickboxing, western-style Boxing, and other martial arts. Its rules are similar to those of kickboxing but they have been simplified to promote exciting matches that may end in a knockout win.

World Victory Road (WVR) is a Japanese Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) organization which promotes the Sengoku Raiden Championship in Japan. The organization was formed in 2007 following the purchase of Pride FC by Zuffa. It operates in conjunction with the Japan Mixed Martial Arts Federation (JMM). The Sengoku championship is broadcast on Fuji TV and pay-per-view in Japan, and on HDNet in United States.

Dream is a mixed martial arts organization promoted by Fighting and Entertainment Group and co-produced. It is the sister production of K-1 kick boxing.

[luvfightgame]

OK so Ray Mercer took a SURPRISE MMA match vs Tim Sylvia and whipped his ass in under a minute and you think that vindicates Sylvia?

Vindicates DUH!!! The point is that Sylvia was trying to do the opposite of what Toney did. He was going to outbox a boxer. The fight was scheduled as a BOXING match. The postponed, moved, rescheduled to make sure it was boxing. Then at the last second it wasn't sanctioned so they fought under MMA rules. But Sylvia still said he was going to stand with Mercer and box with him. How can you vindicate a KO The point is it was an MMA fighter trying to box. Proves what we've all said. If you get out of your element your gonna lose the fight.

OK, if Tim was going to "stand and box" then #1 Why is the first strike from Sylvia a kick? #2 Why was he not warned or penalized for doing something that is against the rules in boxing? #3 Why were they in an MMA cage #4 Why were they wearing 4 oz gloves and no shoes?

BECAUSE IT WAS AN MMA MATCH

As for your little tirade on why "Boxing selling 1 match at a time is a bad thing for the sport" what about when we get to see Pacquiao on the undercard of Lewis-Tyson? What about when we see Miguel Cotto-Ricardo Torres on the same card as Wladimir Klitschko-Sam Peter I? My answer to you is, just because you heavily market 1 fight doesn't mean there won't be quality matches on the undercard and if there aren't then it's not like the promoter did the fans a disservice by promising more and delivering less.

If you like MMA watch it, love it, appreciate it...I'm not telling you to do anything different, just keep your MMA bullshit on the tiny little never used MMA section of the forum. I don't care about it, I don't like it, but once in a blue moon I will comment on something about it, and I'll do it in the appropriate forum.

OK so MMA has an amateur system...I didn't know about it, but I still HIGHLY doubt it gets into the Olympics.

As for the boxing vs mma #1 In the ring it's a ridiculous argument...in MMA where you can pretty much do anything of course the MMA fighter using all the weapons he has is at a major advantage than the boxer who is using 1 specific martial art. #2 As for the money, it's still ridiculous....what were Floyd and Manny going to make? #3 As for "MMA gives us every fight we want to see".....what happened with Lesnar vs Fedor? So let's not act like MMA is just picture perfect and I can tell you that you can expect even more of those matches to not get made because the UFC will have competition and the fighters have contracts with COMPANIES and not with independent promoters and let's say Strikeforce pulls an unbelieveable heavyweight out of the blue and all of a sudden he's the new cash cow of MMA.....what does UFC do then? They couldn't sign Fedor, they couldn't sign Overeem.....I mean do you want the best to fight the best or what?

Ok Lyle..... lets see if you can grasp this...... the Sylvia vs Mercer fight was SUPPOSED to be a BOXING match. Here's a link from Sports Illustrated.....
Tim Sylvia's boxing debut against Ray Mercer canceled - SI.com - Mixed Martial Arts

#1- I am aware it ended up being an MMA fight. I don't know why he threw a kick after he claimed he was gonna box with him. There is no issue here, I have simply explained that this event was SUPPOSED to be Tim Sylvia crossing over to BOXING. We all know how it ended and the only difference if it would have been boxing is it would have lasted longer because of bigger gloves. It might have taken 2 punches instead of 1 with 10oz gloves.

#2- No argument about which sport is better. I like both. And it's purely opinion.

#3- Regarding cards- you still make it out as if the boxing status quo is a better business model. Occasionally we get something like Cotto and Wlad on the same card. More often though it's HBO televising both on the same broadcast, but they are completely different cards. It's not the norm. You know as well as I do, this is a major complaint from boxing fans. Somehow in a discussion about MMA, everything people bitch about in boxing, becomes it's greatest strengths. Most of the time boxing cards have one big fight and a whole slew of mismatches.

#4- Boxers making too much money has become a HUGE problem. PBF is the absolute worst example to use. He is the shining example of what is wrong. He always talks about how he will only take high paying fights, but sidesteps legitimate challengers and will take a shitty fight for less money. So because Pac/Floyd was gonna be the biggest $$ event it's a good thing First off it didn't happen, we all know how that fiasco has been, second if PBF wasn't overpaid he'd have to fight more often because right now it takes him a full year to piss away his earnings. Nobody said MMA would surpass boxing purses, and it shouldn't because they are ridiculous and it fucks up the sport.

#5- Never said MMA is perfect. UFC has established itself as the elite level. The other leagues will serve as a "minor league" where they will eventually go to the UFC. Fedor's management acted like a boxing promoter instead of an agent for an athlete in a professional sport that has leagues. And they fucked up. He lost to a fighter that was cut from the UFC so now he lost some of his pull. There is a huge difference between not making a fight because a fighter signed with a different league, or not making a fight because both fighters have undefeated records and their promoters make too much money feeding them chumps. MMA doesn't give ALL the fights every fan wants, but they don't protect fighters and build them up as invincible and then when they lose the first tough fight, drop them. It's realistic and they make tough fights. No easy route. Boxing promoters do the exact opposite and you know it.

#6- UFC is the one who won't allow their fighters to fight for anyone else while they are under contract. Overheem is fighting in K1, several of their other fighters are fighting in Dream. UFC is the biggest promotion so they don't share.

[El Kabong]

#1 The fact is that the fight ended up being an MMA fight therefore it should have benefitted Tim Sylvia.

#2 Yup

#3 There are PLENTY of cards like that people just don't usually take notice of which card they are on.

#4 Fine, if you want your pro MMA athletes working for nothing more than a couple hundred thousand then that sport WILL suffer. Boxing's purses are just fine. I'm wondering if you will change your mind if a couple of the early UFC stars start going bankrupt.

#5 Boxers that are "protected" eventually have to step it up or the fans call them out on it. The UFC only has so many fighters so obviously they can't "protect" their fighters AND boxers usually have more fights so there are "tune ups" and so on.

#6 Boxing doesn't really have those issues...unless some promoters (like Sauerland) choose not to cooperate with other promoters.

[Hornfinger]

tony was just unlucky. He could have taken randy. He probably got paid off and begged not to tarnish the career of a hall of famer.

[luvfightgame]

#1 The fact is that the fight ended up being an MMA fight therefore it should have benefitted Tim Sylvia.

#2 Yup

#3 There are PLENTY of cards like that people just don't usually take notice of which card they are on.

#4 Fine, if you want your pro MMA athletes working for nothing more than a couple hundred thousand then that sport WILL suffer. Boxing's purses are just fine. I'm wondering if you will change your mind if a couple of the early UFC stars start going bankrupt.

#5 Boxers that are "protected" eventually have to step it up or the fans call them out on it. The UFC only has so many fighters so obviously they can't "protect" their fighters AND boxers usually have more fights so there are "tune ups" and so on.

#6 Boxing doesn't really have those issues...unless some promoters (like Sauerland) choose not to cooperate with other promoters.

1- Ok.

2- Agreed.

3- Ok.

4- Early MMA guys are already bankrupt. They literally made nothing. My argument is that Boxing purses are off in the wrong direction. Low level make nothing, elite make too much. And boxing isn't all that great for lower weight divisions, and non HBO fights. Check out purses for the flyweights champs. Too much money ruins a fighter. Not enough means they can never retire. Some (Holyfield) just won't quit no matter how much they made. Overall, there's tons of broke boxers. Being broke isn't about how much they made, it's how they handled it. Both sports have a pay problem. MMA is heading in the right direction, but definitely not there.

5- UFC does it by design, not necessity. Tuneups for a guy who has a hundred amateur fights? 30-40 pro fights? Sparring is a tuneup. It's bullshit taking on a gimme fight when your at that level.

6- Boxing can't have that problem. UFC is like a league. If you play for the NBA they won't allow you to play in the CBA over the summer. Strikeforce has no real structure and allows guys to fight in other leagues, K1, Dream, Bellator, etc. It's really because they are winging it and haven't established any control over their organization. Everyone is striving to go to the UFC so it will end up being fine that a guy dominates Strikeforce and then moves on to UFC.

[luvfightgame]

tony was just unlucky. He could have taken randy. He probably got paid off and begged not to tarnish the career of a hall of famer.

And they probably paid him with donuts. Easy way to keep him out of the gym.

[ross]

Toney was top earner on the night and was paid twice as much as his opponent

UFC 118: Toney and Couture come out Top Earners | MMA News

[El Kabong]

Toney was top earner on the night and was paid twice as much as his opponent

UFC 118: Toney and Couture come out Top Earners | MMA News

$500K...not too shabby for less than a round of "work"...I would doubt that he would make more in boxing now'a'days given his skill level, but hell Andre Berto made $1.5 mil his last fight.

[Hulk]

Joe Rogan: "James, do you think you need to work on your ground game and come back ?"

JFAT: "No I dont' need to work on my ground game..."

Jesus fucking Christ...

[El Kabong]

Joe Rogan: "James, do you think you need to work on your ground game and come back ?"

JFAT: "No I dont' need to work on my ground game..."

Jesus fucking Christ...

I have a question and a statement

#1 The question: Does James Toney plan on continuing to fight in MMA?

#2 The statement: Fuck Joe Rogan. I didn't like him on News Radio and I don't like him now....let me guess he was unshaven and wearing a black button up shirt that was 2 sizes too small when he asked James that question....gay lumberjack looking motherfucker

Nothing against MMA, I just hate Joe Rogan....smug little bastard

[ralph]

I HAVE to share this with everyone, as I assume everyone didn't see the UFC 118 countdown.

[El Kabong]

I HAVE to share this with everyone, as I assume everyone didn't see the UFC 118 countdown.

Oh like no one in MMA tries to sell a fight...he got $500K....the joke is on UFC for paying him that much

[LukeH]

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

[Fenster]

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

So true.

Bilbo - when that little girls dad attacked you at the disco, did you naturally throw a punch/kick in retaliation or envisage a takedown followed by an arm-twisty move?

UFC is as far away from a real street fight as boxing is. All that fighting knowledge counts for shit if you haven't got time to think and space to move.