Which draw was the biggest robbery?

[hardcore_crash]

Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.

Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.

Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.

I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***

Well let's go through them one by one.

Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.

Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.

Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit

Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.

Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?

People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.

The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.

Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.

Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.

Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.

But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.

Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.

[Kev]

Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.

Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.

Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.

I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***

Well let's go through them one by one.

Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.

Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.

Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit

Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.

Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?

People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.

The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.

Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.

Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.

Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.

But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.

Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.

I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.

In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.

A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since

[hardcore_crash]

Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.

Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.

Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.

I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***

Well let's go through them one by one.

Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.

Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.

Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit

Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.

Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?

People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.

The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.

Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.

Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.

Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.

But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.

Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.

I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.

In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.

A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since

Oscar clearly fooled himself weighing in less than Pacquiao on fight night.
Not only that but he was in the low 40's during training camp for that fight.
Pacquiao was not much of a cash-cow then, but he was a name.
I think negotiations started when Floyd retired, and Oscar had already planned moving down.

[Kev]

Bilbo, no draining accusations from me and I never said Pacquiao asked directly.
There is no direct quote from Manny, so obviously he did not say it.
It is an idea being thrown around his team I imagine.
And I said, a page or two ago, that I was going with how many times Manny AND his goons have asked for catch weights. Goons being his management.
Thought I'd clear somethings up.

Ah I didn't see this response before I posted mine. Ok I accept that you didn't claim that then.

Manny has only ever asked for two catchweight fights though. Talk of others is merely media speculation.

I really don't think Roach is trying to dehydrate Manny's opponents as much a a raisin.
But, there has to be reasons he is fighting DLH 147, Cotto 145, Clottey 147, Mosley 148***

Well let's go through them one by one.

Oscar. At the time of the negotiations Manny was a superfeatherweight, Oscar a junior middleweight. That's a difference of 4 weight divisions! For Manny to climb three and Oscar to drop one seemed to most to be unfairly stacked against Manny. It was Oscar who held the bartering power in that fight and all the prefight criticism was directed against him for picking on such a small guy just to make money. You can't slate Manny for this fight at all.

Cotto, Probably the biggest criticism that could be laid at Pac is this fight. He had fought Oscar at 147 so why not Cotto? Well I would agree that maybe Manny was uncertain he could face a young, tough worldclass natural welterweight and that he wasn't sure if he himself was a natural welterweight. In the event he dominated Miguel and subsequently fought his next fight against Clottey, who is an ever bigger welter than Cotto, at the full welterweight limit. Cotto also only weighed in a single pound less than he did for his own fight with Clottey, he was hardly drained. Personally I am prepared to give a superfeatherweight brave enough to rise through 10 weight divisions and fight the best a pass on asking an opponent to give up a pound.

Clottey. Fought at the full 148 limit

Margaritio, you don't mention him above but the catchweight was to Margarito's advantage not Manny's. Margarito was a career welterweight and was allowed to weigh in over 3lbs heavier than his previous significant fights so that they could fight for a 145 title. On the night Margarito was 17lbs heavier than Manny. If Manny would have fought him at the welterweight limit he would have had a bigger advantage. This catchweight helped Margo not Manny.

Mosley. No catchweight has yet been agreed but again I don't see how it helps Manny. Mosley has been fighting at 147 so why would allowing him to fight higher than that cause him to be weight drained?

People can argue against the purity of the weight classes being tarnished, that's a seperate issue. But the idea that Manny is forcing fighters to lose on the scales just doesn't hold up.

The only fighter dead at the weight was Oscar, and that fight was the result of HIS negotiations.

Well not only that but really Oscar's nutritionist fukd up with the deer/kangaroo meat diet which resulted in him losing muscle mass and not just overall weight. They were more concerned with paying 147lb overages at $1 Million per even a fraction of a pound. Oscar could have easily stepped into the ring with a 10lb weight advantage. Had he not been able to make weight normally it would have been easy to call the fight due to a back injury or similar. Rather than kill his body with the goofy diet.

Also, and thing that people forget is that Oscar actually got into the ring weighing less than he did at the weigh in. He clearly had something going on. I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember him on the night weighing only 142.

Yeah, Oscar really clowned himself for this fight.

But he was moving down to Forbes, to try to get a potential rematch with Floyd at 147 pounds. Not Manny, if i remember.

Am I missing the negotiations that started with Pac/DLH immediately after Marquez II?
Because if I remember correctly Manny needed to move up by then and chose to get a paper title with Diaz, instead of facing Casamayor. Marquez chasing Pacquiao up in weight, fought Casamayor to prove a point.

I think the negotiations were long going on in the background. Oscar had already lost at 154 to Floyd. Manny was the only big cash cow out there for Oscar. He saw Shane move back down and easily beat up Louis Collazo. He remembered Bernard Hopkins dropping 4 lbs and knocking Oscar himself out and so he doubtless licked his lips at the prospect of dragging the little Filipino up to the welterweight division where he could win a nice risk free fight and walk off with suitcases full of cash.

In one of the more spectacular strategic blunders in history Oscar underestimated Manny and was humiliated and embarrassed on boxing's biggest stage.

A result which has led to me love Manny Pacquaio ever since

Oscar clearly fooled himself weighing in less than Pacquiao on fight night.
Not only that but he was in the low 40's during training camp for that fight.
Pacquiao was not much of a cash-cow then, but he was a name.
I think negotiations started when Floyd retired, and Oscar had already planned moving down.

Manny vs Oscar was the third biggest non heavyweight fight in history, he was definitely a cash cow. Only Floyd and Ricky Hatton could compare. Oscar also wanted Hatton but couldn't get that fight and Floyd didn't want a rematch so Manny was the only choice for a greedy multimillionaire to cash in with his last fight.

[Pugilistic]

Based on the fights i have seen, my vote goes to Funeka/Guzman 1.

Funeka beat his ass clearly, but the judges seen otherwise.

[generalbulldog]

I have to say this, I think it is blatantly dishonest and a revision of history to even suggest that Pacquiao bullied/forced Oscar to fight at Welterweight. The most successful boxer financially was never forced to do anything in his career. Oscar always had the advantage in negotiations.

Chavez, Whitaker, Quartey, Vargas, Trinidad, Hopkins, Gatti, Mayweather, and Pacquiao were the ones dictated to by Oscar in negotiations, no one ever dictated anything to Oscar. As I've said before that is blatantly dishonest to suggest he was forced by Pacquiao to fight at 147 for a big payday.

[hardcore_crash]

I have to say this, I think it is blatantly dishonest and a revision of history to even suggest that Pacquiao bullied/forced Oscar to fight at Welterweight. The most successful boxer financially was never forced to do anything in his career. Oscar always had the advantage in negotiations.

Chavez, Whitaker, Quartey, Vargas, Trinidad, Hopkins, Gatti, Mayweather, and Pacquiao were the ones dictated to by Oscar in negotiations, no one ever dictated anything to Oscar. As I've said before that is blatantly dishonest to suggest he was forced by Pacquiao to fight at 147 for a big payday.

I hope you are not talking about me on this one.
Oscar was the bully against Pacquiao, and way too overconfident. He made a huge mistake, IMO, taking that fight with Pacquiao.
Especially as I previously stated, he was in the low 40's during the camp and actually tried to put on the weight during the last week or two.
I will never forget Oscar saying during the 24/7 ,"There will be a knockout"
Completely backfired on him.