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Thread: Damaging a Legacy

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    Default Damaging a Legacy

    I don't think it happens.

    Allow me to explain. I often read that, for example, Roy Jones or Evander Holyfield or James Toney are "damaging their legacies" by continuing when they are only a shadow of their championship selves or by participating in MMA.

    While I agree those situations are sad and I wish weren't ongoing, are they really going to affect how we think about a fighter over time? I think time tends to give perspective on things like this.

    Joe Louis got drilled by Rocky Marciano and ended his days in the ring by wrestling.
    Jack Johnson fought on into his mid forties and lost five of his last seven fights, three by knockout.
    Muhammad Ali lost his last two fights by KO and three of his last four, the third to a man with seven (?) pro fights.
    Sam Langford fought five years with eyes almost gone and sufferred 90% of his losses in those years.
    After fighting Marciano, Ezzard Charles had 15 of his 25 career losses and was a .500 guy.


    There are of course many more examples of extraordinary fighters with terrible endings. Yet we look back at these men as giants in the sport. Properly so I think.

    I suspect we will look back in five years and agree Roy Jones stopped being Roy Jones in the second Tarver fight, that James Toney stopped being James Toney after Evander Holyfield and Evander stopped being Evander maybe that same night. Or maybe a little earlier and that little that happened after that matters in term's of history's judgement.

    My own view is these three men could get KO'd ten straight times by a Girl Scout Troop and it wouldn't change who these men were or the way we regard them as fighters.

    Am I nuts?
    Last edited by marbleheadmaui; 07-18-2011 at 07:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Well it definitely takes the polish off in a short/ mid term perspective.
    Long term? I dunno, we ain't there yet, or maybe it ain't for us to say

    But right now, I think all talk of legacy for current fighters is out of order.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Know what you saying but new fans coming in now will think Roy Jones and Holyfield are journeyman bums. Only in time when they look back will they realise what they were. Casual fans may never appreciate.

    And an end record with like 10 defeats (not sure what they both on) don't look good does it to an outsider but if they can get on all time lists then they will do ok

    By the way I don't remember Ali losing twice by KO !??! Just the one inside distance defeat when Dundee pulled him out
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    I don't think it happens.

    Allow me to explain. I often read that, for example, Roy Jones or Evander Holyfield or James Toney are "damaging their legacies" by continuing when they are only a shadow of their championship selves or by participating in MMA.

    While I agree those situations are sad and I wish weren't ongoing, are they really going to affect how we think about a fighter over time? I think time tends to give perspective on things like this.

    Joe Louis got drilled by Rocky Marciano and ended his days in the ring by wrestling.
    Jack Johnson fought on into his mid forties and lost five of his last seven fights, three by knockout.
    Muhammad Ali lost his last two fights by KO and three of his last four, the third to a man with seven (?) pro fights.
    Sam Langford fought five years with eyes almost gone and sufferred 90% of his losses in those years.
    After fighting Marciano, Ezzard Charles had 15 of his 25 career losses and was a .500 guy.


    There are of course many more examples of extraordinary fighters with terrible endings. Yet we look back at these men as giants in the sport. Properly so I think.

    I suspect we will look back in five years and agree Roy Jones stopped being Roy Jones in the second Tarver fight, that James Toney stopped being James Toney after Evander Holyfield and Evander stopped being Evander maybe that same night. Or maybe a little earlier and that little that happened after that matters in term's of history's judgement.

    My own view is these three men could get KO'd ten straight times by a Girl Scout Troop and it wouldn't change who these men were or the way we regard them as fighters.

    Am I nuts?
    Whre did you rank Tyson as an all time heavy back in 88? Do you still rate him in the same place?
    God is a concept, By which we can measure, Our pain, I'll say it again, God is a concept, By which we can measure, Our pain, I don't believe in magic, I don't believe in I-ching, I don't believe in bible, I don't believe in tarot, I don't believe in Hitler, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in Kennedy, I don't believe in Buddha, I don't believe in mantra, I don't believe in Gita, I don't believe in yoga, I don't believe in kings, I don't believe in Elvis, I don't believe in Zimmerman, I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me!!


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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    H, there is a fundmental flaw in Marb's logic though. He thinks Tyson only made 1 title defence, so he probably never ranked him that highly anyway.
    Last edited by Jimanuel Boogustus; 07-18-2011 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Dropanuke, you loose buddy.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    I agree actually, to the people that care about the sport we are often saddended to see it, but we can remember the good old days.

    Some fighters seem to actually grow their legacy, Hopkins for example is still making his!

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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by BIG H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    I don't think it happens.

    Allow me to explain. I often read that, for example, Roy Jones or Evander Holyfield or James Toney are "damaging their legacies" by continuing when they are only a shadow of their championship selves or by participating in MMA.

    While I agree those situations are sad and I wish weren't ongoing, are they really going to affect how we think about a fighter over time? I think time tends to give perspective on things like this.

    Joe Louis got drilled by Rocky Marciano and ended his days in the ring by wrestling.
    Jack Johnson fought on into his mid forties and lost five of his last seven fights, three by knockout.
    Muhammad Ali lost his last two fights by KO and three of his last four, the third to a man with seven (?) pro fights.
    Sam Langford fought five years with eyes almost gone and sufferred 90% of his losses in those years.
    After fighting Marciano, Ezzard Charles had 15 of his 25 career losses and was a .500 guy.


    There are of course many more examples of extraordinary fighters with terrible endings. Yet we look back at these men as giants in the sport. Properly so I think.

    I suspect we will look back in five years and agree Roy Jones stopped being Roy Jones in the second Tarver fight, that James Toney stopped being James Toney after Evander Holyfield and Evander stopped being Evander maybe that same night. Or maybe a little earlier and that little that happened after that matters in term's of history's judgement.

    My own view is these three men could get KO'd ten straight times by a Girl Scout Troop and it wouldn't change who these men were or the way we regard them as fighters.

    Am I nuts?
    Whre did you rank Tyson as an all time heavy back in 88? Do you still rate him in the same place?
    I didn't place him among the greatest back then or now. Judging Tyson in 1988 would have made about as much sense as judging Gamboa now.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    I completely agree with you. Firstly, it's immensely arrogant of anybody to try and 'leave a legacy' ...... the whole point og having a history amongst the pantheon of greats is that you are judged after you have retired and you are judged by other people. Someone like Henry Maske taking undemanding fights against second rate fighters is much more telling than the fact he lovingly polished his record so his 'legacy' was untarnished.

    Emperors, kings and statesmen leave legacies, not athletes.

    Someone like Mike Tyson, for example, who was a genuinely fearsome and electrifying perfomer in his short prime would be remembered for just that - not the fact that he fell out of love for the sport, lost all discipline and direction and fought on for too long. People like Danny Williams didn't beat MIKE TYSON, they were just burgling an empty house. Doesnt affect how he will be remembered.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus View Post
    H, there is a fundmental flaw in Marb's logic though. He thinks Tyson only made 1 title defence, so he probably never ranked him that highly anyway.
    Two defenses.

    Want to explain how Tyson won the crown from Berbick when the reigning champion, Mike Spinks, was still active?
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BIG H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    I don't think it happens.

    Allow me to explain. I often read that, for example, Roy Jones or Evander Holyfield or James Toney are "damaging their legacies" by continuing when they are only a shadow of their championship selves or by participating in MMA.

    While I agree those situations are sad and I wish weren't ongoing, are they really going to affect how we think about a fighter over time? I think time tends to give perspective on things like this.

    Joe Louis got drilled by Rocky Marciano and ended his days in the ring by wrestling.
    Jack Johnson fought on into his mid forties and lost five of his last seven fights, three by knockout.
    Muhammad Ali lost his last two fights by KO and three of his last four, the third to a man with seven (?) pro fights.
    Sam Langford fought five years with eyes almost gone and sufferred 90% of his losses in those years.
    After fighting Marciano, Ezzard Charles had 15 of his 25 career losses and was a .500 guy.


    There are of course many more examples of extraordinary fighters with terrible endings. Yet we look back at these men as giants in the sport. Properly so I think.

    I suspect we will look back in five years and agree Roy Jones stopped being Roy Jones in the second Tarver fight, that James Toney stopped being James Toney after Evander Holyfield and Evander stopped being Evander maybe that same night. Or maybe a little earlier and that little that happened after that matters in term's of history's judgement.

    My own view is these three men could get KO'd ten straight times by a Girl Scout Troop and it wouldn't change who these men were or the way we regard them as fighters.

    Am I nuts?
    Whre did you rank Tyson as an all time heavy back in 88? Do you still rate him in the same place?
    I didn't place him among the greatest back then or now. Judging Tyson in 1988 would have made about as much sense as judging Gamboa now.
    You obviously don't remember 1988 or that period. EVERYBODY was ranking Tyson's all time position at that point!
    Last edited by BIG H; 07-18-2011 at 07:21 PM.
    God is a concept, By which we can measure, Our pain, I'll say it again, God is a concept, By which we can measure, Our pain, I don't believe in magic, I don't believe in I-ching, I don't believe in bible, I don't believe in tarot, I don't believe in Hitler, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in Kennedy, I don't believe in Buddha, I don't believe in mantra, I don't believe in Gita, I don't believe in yoga, I don't believe in kings, I don't believe in Elvis, I don't believe in Zimmerman, I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me!!


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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark TKO View Post
    Know what you saying but new fans coming in now will think Roy Jones and Holyfield are journeyman bums. Only in time when they look back will they realise what they were. Casual fans may never appreciate.

    And an end record with like 10 defeats (not sure what they both on) don't look good does it to an outsider but if they can get on all time lists then they will do ok

    By the way I don't remember Ali losing twice by KO !??! Just the one inside distance defeat when Dundee pulled him out
    Yeah but the casual or the rookie fan isn't the guy who carries any weight in asessing greatness anyway is he? I mean if he were? Guys like Emile Griffith, Ezzard Charles and Dick Tiger and think "journeymen."

    Isn't it the boxing nerds, geeks and well, folks like us who really decide this stuff and educate the rookie and casual fan?

    PS, you're correct on Ali. I forgot he finished the Berbick fight.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus View Post
    Well it definitely takes the polish off in a short/ mid term perspective.
    Long term? I dunno, we ain't there yet, or maybe it ain't for us to say

    But right now, I think all talk of legacy for current fighters is out of order.
    I hear ya...and to some extent I agree. Having said that Manny Pacquiao can never stop being the first man to win four lineal crowns (for example).

    I think when a fighter gets near the end, one can make some qualified, but still incomplete, asessments.

    For a complete review not only does the fighter have to be retired, but all of his significant foes need to be retired as well.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by BIG H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BIG H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui View Post
    I don't think it happens.

    Allow me to explain. I often read that, for example, Roy Jones or Evander Holyfield or James Toney are "damaging their legacies" by continuing when they are only a shadow of their championship selves or by participating in MMA.

    While I agree those situations are sad and I wish weren't ongoing, are they really going to affect how we think about a fighter over time? I think time tends to give perspective on things like this.

    Joe Louis got drilled by Rocky Marciano and ended his days in the ring by wrestling.
    Jack Johnson fought on into his mid forties and lost five of his last seven fights, three by knockout.
    Muhammad Ali lost his last two fights by KO and three of his last four, the third to a man with seven (?) pro fights.
    Sam Langford fought five years with eyes almost gone and sufferred 90% of his losses in those years.
    After fighting Marciano, Ezzard Charles had 15 of his 25 career losses and was a .500 guy.


    There are of course many more examples of extraordinary fighters with terrible endings. Yet we look back at these men as giants in the sport. Properly so I think.

    I suspect we will look back in five years and agree Roy Jones stopped being Roy Jones in the second Tarver fight, that James Toney stopped being James Toney after Evander Holyfield and Evander stopped being Evander maybe that same night. Or maybe a little earlier and that little that happened after that matters in term's of history's judgement.

    My own view is these three men could get KO'd ten straight times by a Girl Scout Troop and it wouldn't change who these men were or the way we regard them as fighters.

    Am I nuts?
    Whre did you rank Tyson as an all time heavy back in 88? Do you still rate him in the same place?
    I didn't place him among the greatest back then or now. Judging Tyson in 1988 would have made about as much sense as judging Gamboa now.
    You obviously don't remember 1988 or that period. EVERYBODY was ranking Tyson's all time position at that point!
    LOL, I was 26 in 1988 and remember it well. I thought at the time everyone was being an idiot. Like I said, it'd be like ranking Gamboa today.
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    I completely agree with you. Firstly, it's immensely arrogant of anybody to try and 'leave a legacy' ...... the whole point og having a history amongst the pantheon of greats is that you are judged after you have retired and you are judged by other people. Someone like Henry Maske taking undemanding fights against second rate fighters is much more telling than the fact he lovingly polished his record so his 'legacy' was untarnished.

    Emperors, kings and statesmen leave legacies, not athletes.

    Someone like Mike Tyson, for example, who was a genuinely fearsome and electrifying perfomer in his short prime would be remembered for just that - not the fact that he fell out of love for the sport, lost all discipline and direction and fought on for too long. People like Danny Williams didn't beat MIKE TYSON, they were just burgling an empty house. Doesnt affect how he will be remembered.
    GREAT post.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Damaging a Legacy

    If RJJ would of retired after beating John Ruiz, people would of been rating him up there with SRR. So yes i'd say he has damaged his legacy quite a fair bit.

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