A Tale of Two Sons of Great Fighters

[TitoFan]

Come to think of it.... I posted this on another thread, but this subject should have its own separate thread.





A Tale of Two Sons of Great Fighters:

Neither had an amateur career. Beyond that, they're different as night and day.

One has been coddled his entire career. Only recently has he been pitted against somewhat decent opposition, and even so... nothing to write home about. His famous dad is in cahoots with the president of the organization from which the prodigious son has a title. Together, they bend rules and look the other way while the prodigious son skips mandatory urine tests... throwing a suspicious cloud over his more recent fights. The son routinely fights at over 20 pounds over his weigh-in weight... coming in much bigger than his overmatched opponents. It is obvious that the overriding concern of this son's camp is to maintain his fake and bloated "zero", following in the footsteps of his famous dad... who didn't fight a live body until his 45th fight.

The other fighter has followed a much tougher route. No coddling for this youngster. His dad is an advisor to his son..... not an overbearing, puppet-string-pulling presence. No favors or rule-bending from any boxing organization. He has two losses... because he has taken on great fighters, while himself barely into his 20th fight. His next fight is against yet another great fighter. If anything, this son is totally the opposite from the other son. He has fought the best out there. So his accomplishments are his own.

The "coddled" son has his share of fans. Among them, some blind, nut-hugging fans who cherish him only because of his ethnic background. They build him up as a "chip off the old block", and lash out to all who dare oppose their views. At the same time, they belittle the accomplishments of the other son, who has actually accomplished more, with less outside help.

[hardcore_crash]

At they end of the day is when it's going to count.
I believe Chavez Jr. Is going to have a great career, though I admit I don't like some of the things surrounding it at this moment.
I do believe Chavez Jr will fight better opponents he is already lined up to fight the P4P #3 fighter, so I'm not sure what this is about?
While Wilfredo Jr. got handled by Arce, who is shot and thought about retirement multiple times.
I'm not sure when Vazquez Jr. got to the level?
Sure Arce is a great fighter, not as much as when he was prime, but what about Martinez? What is he?

[TitoFan]

At they end of the day is when it's going to count.
I believe Chavez Jr. Is going to have a great career, though I admit I don't like some of the things surrounding it at this moment.
I do believe Chavez Jr will fight better opponents he is already lined up to fight the P4P #3 fighter, so I'm not sure what this is about?
While Wilfredo Jr. got handled by Arce, who is shot and thought about retirement multiple times.
I'm not sure when Vazquez Jr. got to the level?
Sure Arce is a great fighter, not as much as when he was prime, but what about Martinez? What is he?

First there's no way Chavez's opponents stack up against Vazquez's opponents... even considering Chavez has twice as many fights as Vazquez. If you look at where Chavez was in terms of opponents back when he was at 20-some fights.... the list was so bad it was pitiful. Next, I do believe Chavez has improved..... how could he not? And Martinez will be the first honest-to-goodness great fighter Chavez will have faced. Let's hope there's no "I can't provide a piss sample" controversies surrounding THIS fight.

As for Vazquez, he was more than holding his own against Arce when finally stopped late in the fight. Rather than discredit Vazquez, Arce should be credited for pulling out another great fight to add to his great career. Vazquez then faced and lost a decision to Nonito Donaire, who is merely LIGHT-YEARS ahead of anybody Chavez has ever faced. And now he's going to face Rafael Marquez.

I'm sorry, but I stand even more by my assessment.

[hardcore_crash]

Yes, at this point he has faced better competition.
But I believe, I could be wrong though, that at the end of the day Chavez will have the better career. Not because of Chavez Sr is his dad or Sulaiman is "The Godfather", but because he took the time to learn how to fight , get in proper shape, and fill in to his body before facing top p4p fighters.
Not everyone is Canelo and can fight all these top guys at such a young age.
If Vazquez Jr., who is his adivser, wants to throw him in to the wolves before he was ready that's fine.
Vargas already got his ass beat by Trinidad before he was ready, and where is he now?
He faced top guys but lost to much of them.
In a few years Chavez Jr might still be fighting top guys and Vazquez Jr. Is going to be the kid who got thrown in to the wolves by his advisor.

And no Chavez wouldn't have been able to hang with someone like Martinez when he had 20 fights, but who would honestly expect him to? As soon as he became the 160 WBC champ is when it matters who and when he fights them.

[greynotsoold]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

[TitoFan]

Yes, at this point he has faced better competition.
But I believe, I could be wrong though, that at the end of the day Chavez will have the better career. Not because of Chavez Sr is his dad or Sulaiman is "The Godfather", but because he took the time to learn how to fight , get in proper shape, and fill in to his body before facing top p4p fighters.
Not everyone is Canelo and can fight all these top guys at such a young age.
If Vazquez Jr., who is his adivser, wants to throw him in to the wolves before he was ready that's fine.
Vargas already got his ass beat by Trinidad before he was ready, and where is he now?
He faced top guys but lost to much of them.
In a few years Chavez Jr might still be fighting top guys and Vazquez Jr. Is going to be the kid who got thrown in to the wolves by his advisor.

And no Chavez wouldn't have been able to hang with someone like Martinez when he had 20 fights, but who would honestly expect him to? As soon as he became the 160 WBC champ is when it matters who and when he fights them.

You're right about how Chavez is being brought along. But that's precisely the reason as to my skepticism about his record. Think about it. Chavez has 40+ fights as a pro. In the end, his record will be compared to other fighters who had 40+ fights without a loss (if Jr. continues undefeated). But what will the comparison show? That because Junior didn't have an amateur career.... he was fed pulseless victims for the greater part of those 40+ fights. How then, can you compare his record to those who have HAD an amateur career.... and who have had credible opponents since early in their pro careers?

Answer: you can't compare them.

[hardcore_crash]

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone though that Chavez had 40+ fights before he stepped it up.
Look at Chavez Sr. he had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition.
If he is following in his dad's footsteps , which he might want to, then he's doing it right.
I understand Chavez got a lot of heat for fighting cab drivers or what not, but looking at his career now he had a great one.
All those fights helped mold him in to the fighter he turned out to be.
Sure not everyone does that, but his dad did it got him to where he is, and it seems to be working for him to.

[greynotsoold]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

[TitoFan]

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone though that Chavez had 40+ fights before he stepped it up.
Look at Chavez Sr. he had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition.
If he is following in his dad's footsteps , which he might want to, then he's doing it right.
I understand Chavez got a lot of heat for fighting cab drivers or what not, but looking at his career now he had a great one.
All those fights helped mold him in to the fighter he turned out to be.
Sure not everyone does that, but his dad did it got him to where he is, and it seems to be working for him to.

I think we're looking at the same events, but we're interpreting them in different ways. You said that "Chavez Sr. had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition." I prefer to think of it as Chavez Sr. fighting bums with losing records for his first 40-some fights, all of them in Mexico. No doubt that after that... he got on track with better opposition and ended up having a great career. But does his record of 100 wins stack up twice as good as someone who fought good opposition from the very beginning and ended up with 40-50 professional fights? IMO...... no. It's a matter of personal opinion.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

I guess we differ on our opinions of Montiel and Donaire... particularly Donaire. But that's typical between boxing fans. Not all of us see the same things. Fair enough.

Regarding Chavez Jr's record, I just responded to hardcore crash that I don't view Junior's record very positively... and for that matter, I think Chavez Sr's record of 100 wins is extremely skewed based on his first 45 fights, where he fought nothing but bums with lousy records.... all in Mexico. Granted, he then went on to fight great opposition, and finished having a wonderful career. But stacking up purely numbers, I don't see his 100 wins any better than another great fighter, with good opposition from the very beginning... and with 40-50 fights to end his career. That is a more normal and typical number for a great fighter. I would automatically substract 45 fights from Senior's win total... if we're going to be comparing. Apples with apples.

[hardcore_crash]

We're on the same boat, I just intrepeted that line wrong.
I don't believe a record of 100-0 means anything if the level of opposition is weak.
Chavez or anyone's record.
Same as why I don't think too highly of Calzaghe.
The thing is though during those first 30 fights Chavez Jr. was not in good shape, still learning as a fighter, and wasn't even a world champion. Those fights are crucial as learning experience just amateur fights are.
As soon as Chavez became WBC champ his competition went up, and now a year later, is booked to fight the #3 p4p fighter in my eyes. That's what really counts.
If let's say , Chavez Jr. starts fighting the likes of Vanda after he is a world champ then that is all wrong.

Chavez was purely fighting for money, money, money. Coming from a poor family if he could get a fight he signed up for it. As soon as he started getting attention he fought for titles and the rest is history. I think , I'm not sure though, that you see those 80 fights Chavez has as him padding his record which I don't think it is. And I, like you, slice his record in half.

[TitoFan]

We're on the same boat, I just intrepeted that line wrong.
I don't believe a record of 100-0 means anything if the level of opposition is weak.
Chavez or anyone's record.
Same as why I don't think too highly of Calzaghe.
The thing is though during those first 30 fights Chavez Jr. was not in good shape, still learning as a fighter, and wasn't even a world champion. Those fights are crucial as learning experience just amateur fights are.
As soon as Chavez became WBC champ his competition went up, and now a year later, is booked to fight the #3 p4p fighter in my eyes. That's what really counts.
If let's say , Chavez Jr. starts fighting the likes of Vanda after he is a world champ then that is all wrong.

Chavez was purely fighting for money, money, money. Coming from a poor family if he could get a fight he signed up for it. As soon as he started getting attention he fought for titles and the rest is history. I think , I'm not sure though, that you see those 80 fights Chavez has as him padding his record which I don't think it is. And I, like you, slice his record in half.

I got no problem with that. If you've never fought before as an amateur... you're gonna have to "cut your teeth" in your first professional fights. And maybe Vazquez Jr has taken on a bit more than he can chew by going after the Arces, Donaires, and Marquezes with barely 20 pro fights to his credit.

But when all is said and done... all that will remain will be the record. Let's say Chavez Jr retires tomorrow. He will end up with a record of 46-0-1. The fact that he had no amateur career will be a footnote in history, and his record will be compared to the great fighters who finished with records of 45-2, 40-3, 35-2, and so on and so forth. Many great names who are head and shoulders above Junior..... but the numbers will say differently.

I have no qualms with Junior being brought along at a snail's pace. I just think his record should have an asterisk next to it.... is all.

[hardcore_crash]

I agree with you on a lot of points, the thing I don't agree with is his record having an asterisk next to it.
I do agree that his record of 46-0 shouldn't be regarded as a great undefeated record, like I said the same about Calzaghe.
About Calzaghe he was a world champion for years and didn't chose to do much. Given, Chavez Jr. probably wouldn't have either if Martinez wasn't his mandatory.
I have to applaud Sulaiman for keeping his word to Martinez on that one.


I'm not too big of a Chavez Jr. fan but I feel the first post was a little unfair.
I think it's great that Vazquez Jr. started so late, and in little time climbed the ranks fast. I actually think it's amazing and very but inspirational.

It seems they took two completely different routes, and only time will tell how far their careers go.

[TitoFan]

I just hope the Sept 15 fight happens under equal terms. No doping suspicions... no foot-dragging regarding blood or urine samples... no mysteries regarding glove inspections. In short... a fight free of controversies where it's just Junior's abilities versus Sergio's. If Junior want to climb into the ring weighing over 180 pounds... then I guess there's nothing to stop him.