Pac-Naz - we now have definitve proof. Fact.

[Fenster]

Ah... temper, temper.

Go back and read post 41. Then let me know if there's something in there you did not understand.

Go on now...

The questions in post 43 were directly related to the replies in posts 40 and 41.

Want to have a go at answering the questions? Or you waiting for Mick?

[Bobthepen]

JMM was THEE mandatory challenger to Naz... Naz ducked him for a long time.
That is a fact.

Emmanuel Steward (RIP) admitted to telling Naz and advising to steer clear from him and not fight him and Naz listened.
That is also a fact.

It is a fact, but it only paints part of the picture. Naz was a superstar, and as such cherry picked opponents that would make big fights. Luis Abregu is number one contender for Mayweather's title, but I won't be accusing Mayweather of ducking him if they never fight.

I'm a huge Marquez fan, but I'm not kidding myself that he was the same fighter in the late nineties that he became a few years later. Marquez didn't win a world title until after Naz retired. Marquez has stated himself many times that he became more aggressive later in his career because he threw away fights.
If I had to place a bet, I'd put it on Naz to beat a pre 2000 Marquez.

[Fenster]

JMM was THEE mandatory challenger to Naz... Naz ducked him for a long time.
That is a fact.

Emmanuel Steward (RIP) admitted to telling Naz and advising to steer clear from him and not fight him and Naz listened.
That is also a fact.

It is a fact, but it only paints part of the picture. Naz was a superstar, and as such cherry picked opponents that would make big fights. Luis Abregu is number one contender for Mayweather's title, but I won't be accusing Mayweather of ducking him if they never fight.

I'm a huge Marquez fan, but I'm not kidding myself that he was the same fighter in the late nineties that he became a few years later. Marquez didn't win a world title until after Naz retired. Marquez has stated himself many times that he became more aggressive later in his career because he threw away fights.
If I had to place a bet, I'd put it on Naz to beat a pre 2000 Marquez.

Exactly.

Sadly though that is far to complex for some fans to understand. Some can't even accept that a fighter who says "I turned down the fight" actually turned it down. Hilarious/Madness.

[AdamGB]

That's because one fighter has a history of fighting the GREAT fighters of his era and the other, to put it mildly... doesn't.

Call me crazy, but when it comes to opposing stories, I am more likely to side with the guy who didn't retire after having fought and widely lost to the single truly elite that he ever faced.

If Hamed left a better legacy then I might be more open to your cries of avoidance.

[TitoFan]

Ouch! That had to hurt.
Once again.......

[Fenster]

Marquez being superior to Naz is irrelevant. That's a given.

All you have to do is - explain how a fighter has "ducked" someone that refused to fight them? That's it.

@TitoFan - your immature responses are not hiding your lack of knowledge. Either answer the question or accept you were wrong. There's no shame in being wrong. Fact.

[TitoFan]

CutMeMick and AdamGB have both refuted your silly theory that the inferior Naz was somehow ducked by the much greater JMM. I've yet to see your answers to them. Why is that, Fen?

[Fenster]

CutMeMick and AdamGB have both refuted your silly theory that the inferior Naz was somehow ducked by the much greater JMM. I've yet to see your answers to them. Why is that, Fen?

Where have they? Copy and paste their arguments that prove Marquez DID NOT refuse a fight with Naz?

Then show me what my "silly theory" is?

[TitoFan]

There's numerous interviews and articles by credible people stating unequivocally that Hamed ducked Marquez for months, when Marquez was the mandatory challenger. And we have your shaky, unsubstantiated "evidence" that Marquez somehow ducked Hamed.... a theory ridiculed by most here on the forum. All because it suits your dubious agenda of pushing the "greatness" of Hamed, a talented fighter who inexplicably decided to retire after getting humiliated by the only elite fighter he ever faced.

The burden of proof is on you, mod.

[TitoFan]

But I enjoy these periodic arguments over the same tired old theory.
It puts a bit of a smile on my face.

[beenKOed]

Well that maybe so, Adam

But you can't deny we now have concrete evidence that Pac storming forward against a counter puncher, especially with the devastating power and timing of Naz, is a recipe for disaster?

It's borderline impossible to make a case for Pac beating Naz. Lets be honest.

Everything in the ring is a recipe for disaster, if you lose! I'm not trying to take anything away from Marquez, that was as good a one punch KO as anyone will ever see.
Would you consider that Manny was trying to steal the round in the last 10 seconds and got careless. Would you consider that Marquez knew Manny would do that very thing and after, I don't know how many rounds over I don't know how many years finally put it all together to bring about a terrific KO.
Wouldn't any boxing fan expect one or the other of them to figure how to finish off the other guy after that many rounds over that many years.

[Fenster]

There's numerous interviews and articles by credible people stating unequivocally that Hamed ducked Marquez for months, when Marquez was the mandatory challenger. And we have your shaky, unsubstantiated "evidence" that Marquez somehow ducked Hamed.... a theory ridiculed by most here on the forum. All because it suits your dubious agenda of pushing the "greatness" of Hamed, a talented fighter who inexplicably decided to retire after getting humiliated by the only elite fighter he ever faced.

The burden of proof is on you, mod.

"Shaky and unsubstantiated evidence?"

I'm the one that can unequivocally prove Marquez turned down the fight. You want proof?

Exhibit 1 - Marquez admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...

Exhibit 2 - Nacho Beristain (trainer/manager) admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...

Exhibit 3 - Antonio Curtis, Marquez former matchmaker, admits they turned down Hamed. "What happened is this, they called us when we had already signed for another fight and then they wanted us to fight Hamed, Curtis recalled, of those events. Now, I wanted to pull that fight, to fight Hamed. But Nacho said no. He would've gotten a half-million for the fight and Nacho turned that fight down." Max Boxing - Steve Kim

Exhibit 4 - HBO confirm Marquez turned down Hamed -

1. Explain how my evidence is unsubstantiated? 2. Explain what my "silly theory" is? 3. Explain how you're scared of someone you offer a fight?

All you have is - Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Have I ever disputed that obvious fact? No. There are dozens and dozens of mandatory challengers that never get the champion.

[TitoFan]

No.... all I have ISN'T that Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Do you selectively pick and choose what you want to read and blatantly ignore everything else?

Did you not READ and HEAR what credible sources, including Emanuel Steward, had to say about Hamed ducking Marquez for TWO YEARS?

Did you read the reasons why Marquez turned down Hamed after Hamed finally offered him a fight?

Do those circumstances constitute "ducking" to you?

Honestly... you sit out there, all alone in "Hamed Island"... trying to convince the rest of the world that it was Marquez ducking Hamed, when it was always the other way around. You periodically dredge up the same old tired subject, a telling fact in itself. If it really had been as you claim... you wouldn't feel the need to keep dredging it up and boring all of us with the same song and dance, now would you.

You pick and choose your "backup data", blatantly ignoring the true facts. Why? Because Hamed's sudden "no mas" from boxing hurt you like nothing had apparently hurt you before. It's ok dude. No one's ridiculing Hamed anymore. (Well.... only when he talks about comebacks between bites of his double cheeseburger).

You're a forceful and sometimes mocking argumentator. When the truth is on your side... there's no stopping you. But in this case? You come across pitifully, trying to convince the world... who by the way has long since moved on from Hamed.... that it was Marquez ducking Naseem.

Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! Is anybody out there-e-e-e-e-e-e?

Sorry, dude.

[Fenster]

No.... all I have ISN'T that Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Do you selectively pick and choose what you want to read and blatantly ignore everything else?

Did you not READ and HEAR what credible sources, including Emanuel Steward, had to say about Hamed ducking Marquez for TWO YEARS?

Did you read the reasons why Marquez turned down Hamed after Hamed finally offered him a fight?

Do those circumstances constitute "ducking" to you?

Honestly... you sit out there, all alone in "Hamed Island"... trying to convince the rest of the world that it was Marquez ducking Hamed, when it was always the other way around. You periodically dredge up the same old tired subject, a telling fact in itself. If it really had been as you claim... you wouldn't feel the need to keep dredging it up and boring all of us with the same song and dance, now would you.

You pick and choose your "backup data", blatantly ignoring the true facts. Why? Because Hamed's sudden "no mas" from boxing hurt you like nothing had apparently hurt you before. It's ok dude. No one's ridiculing Hamed anymore. (Well.... only when he talks about comebacks between bites of his double cheeseburger).

You're a forceful and sometimes mocking argumentator. When the truth is on your side... there's no stopping you. But in this case? You come across pitifully, trying to convince the world... who by the way has long since moved on from Hamed.... that it was Marquez ducking Naseem.

Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! Is anybody out there-e-e-e-e-e-e?

Sorry, dude.

I've crossed out the irrelevant bit.

First off, I didn't bring up "ducking" in this thread. Now...

1. Manny Steward NEVER said Hamed ducked Marquez. He said whilst working with Hamed I recommended not fighting Marquez. Do you know why? Because Steward believed Barrera and especially Morales, two far bigger names at the time, were "easy" fights for Hamed. He is on record saying that. And who was Hamed's trainer when Marquez was offered the fight? That's right, Manny Steward. You have been confused by a 5 second snippet taken out of context.

2. What credible sources? In the video you posted, one of the journalists is Doug Fischer. He said - "Hamed had a lot to lose against Marquez." That's it. He doesn't say ANYTHING about "ducking." The other journalist said "Naz ducked him." That's all you've got. ONE journo saying Naz ducked him. Evidence? Because Marquez was his mandatory. That is the ONLY evidence available. A Mandatory challenger didn't get a shot at the champion. Laughable.

3. Regardless of the reasons Marquez had for turning down Naz it PROVES he was offered a fight. It PROVES he turned down a massive career high payday. It PROVES Naz WASN'T scared of him.

4. I've provided evidence from Marquez, his trainer/manager, his matchmaker, HBO, Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant and boxing journalist Steve Kim. You provided evidence of ONE journalist saying "Hamed ducked him"?

Now who's evidence looks the most "shaky and unsubstantiated?"

[TitoFan]

You can cross out shit... you can delete... you can edit... you can do whatever you want. You have mod powers. But you can't escape the truth. And I'll take your post apart point by point.

1. You yourself said Steward considered Barrera and Morales "easy" fights for Hamed. Translation: Marquez was NOT an easy fight. Translation: Steward encouraged Hamed to duck Marquez. Next.

2. Ok let's split hairs. Although everyone else clearly alluded to Hamed ducking Marquez, only one actually used the right words. Ok you win. Meanwhile, no one ever accused Marquez of ducking Hamed. Only you, hardly an authority. Next.

3. Marquez was offered a fight after trying UNSUCCESSFULLY to land a fight with Hamed for TWO YEARS. Then, using the head games that handlers and promoters are prone to play, they make an offer to Marquez under circumstances they know Marquez will refuse. It's all explained by credible people. I don't need and will not rehash the details. And let's get one thing straight. The fact that Hamed's people (not Hamed) offered Marquez a fight under dubious circumstances and timing, does NOT prove Hamed wasn't scared of Marquez. Hamed had plenty of time to accept fight offers from Marquez. He chose not to. Next.

4. (see 1 through 3 above)