Edward Snowden support thread

[El Kabong]

So brock, now that Snowden might be a "double agent" are you having second thoughts about supporting him?

[Beanz]

Beanz sorry but your points make no sense. YOu have no normal reaction that you just found out from this Snowden thing all of this illegal shit they are doing to us all. That is kinda like the sheeple as they call them who, after being robbed and then isult to injury after being TOLD they were robbed, they just say its conspiracy crazies, and point out some other thing like how Ecuador or China are not the bastions of freedom, etc....who cares and who said China adn Ecuador were bastions of freedom? Freedom is in the eye of the beholder. If you were a criminal from America and Cuba took you in, that's freedom for you, while we all know Cuba is no bastion of freedom. Its a petty point if I may, and off-topic really.

All I am saying is LOOK goddamit---all the people who say conspiracy theories are just paranoia now are tongue-tied as this Snowden thing has really shown what has been being done to us by our "free, humanitarian, huamn rights championing" govts the US and UK. God knows what else they are doing and we will find out in a year or 2 when another whistleblower acts. Or maybe he will be droned to death by Obama after being put on Obama's Kill List.

Do you have no outrage then? No indignation of being droned to death without a trial, without legal representation? No outrage at your tweets or posts being read in real time by little fucking weasels working at the IRS or the NSA or the Pentaqgon or whoever? IN the name of freedom and to protect you from the evil alQaeda I presume?

What the fuck? So a whacko like Jones is bashed rather than give the guy some credit he is trying his best to expose the assholes who abuse power and take away our rights by stealth? This is a surveillance society now, 1984 Big Brother, and last year anyone who said that was a tinfoil hat whacko, but now this Snowden thing clearly shows it.

So why dont people post something criticizing the assholes who are doing this shit, rather than criticize some weirdo like Jones? Personally I think you got that backwards mate, no offense

Seriously Miles and Brockton have you read your posts back to yourselves ?

Steve

"Why are you not outraged?"

"Beanz sorry but your points make no sense"

" You have no normal reaction "


I'm sorry mate but I do not subscribe to the church of Alex Jones. I am not a disciple of Julian Assange and I do not believe in the ideology of David Icke. It is quite telling and obvious that these people are not interested in truth and that their investment in the conspiracy industry is motivated by a desire for infamy, celebrity and money. To them it is a business. I am not saying that everything they say is paranoia based dribble or that they are all nut jobs. The truth is much scarier than that, but only if you have invested in them as individuals. The mainstream press, that according to Miles is in cahoots with those in power, has actually been responsible for exposing just as many if not more cover ups than the guys you both seem to think are saviours. The Guardian is an establishment broadsheet. The BBC, the same organisation that Jones, the pig ignorant, gun toting, Zionist loving, money squandering, sucky, sucker of suckers claims is Bilderberg run, has in it's esteemed history pissed all over his petty and insignificant regurgitation of other hard working journalists exposes.

I am outraged on a daily basis by things in front of me and things I learn are happening around the world. What I don't need is somebody telling me what I should be outraged about. For two guys that apparently have no love or connection for the U.S or U.K, those countries actions and the lives of those people who live in them seem to occupy an awful lot of your time and thoughts. I think you are both in denial.


Miles

I know you will not read this, or address any of the points, but hey ho I will write it any way, and then when you finally get down of your moral high horse you may realise that the hay you eat, is no better than that, the rest of us do. You said,

1."Snowden is in a 'safe place' according to Assange and that is good to know"

2. "America has expanded upon the terror, that is American made terror and is fooling nobody that Snowden is the bad guy here today in the modern age."

3. "Most want Snowden to reach his island and if that means Russia, China and Ecuador are the ones to do it, then good on them. Nobody else was going to do it. Was he going to go to the UK or Canada or Sweden? Those fine noble upholders of human dignity and truth. "

4."People in Brazil were protesting in part because of the increase in the costs of public transporation. British public transportation is horribly expensive and getting around costs a fortune, but there has never been a million marcing on London and tearing the place up as a result of it. People in these nations have balls and take to the streets over things that matter. That kind of heart died in Britain in the 1980's where it was shown that you will get beaten up, arrested, and will lose your job anyway. You would have thought the costs of University education would have pushed people over the edge more recently, but they just take it after being kettled in, clobbered and put in a cell. That is not freedom either. "


1. Russia. What a fantastic neutral defender of freedom of speech. Putin himself is exemplary as we have seen on numerous occasions recently. From Pussy Riot to the eradication of political enemies and the expansion of his own Russian Mafia.

2. the first line sounds like something out of a bad Roger Corman B-movie but Yes they are fooling nobody

3. See point 1. The U.K, Canada and Sweden have all outstanding human rights records in the modern age. Amnesty was started here, Sweden is pivotal in pioneering anti-facist protests and education and has lead the way in re-homing refugees internally and leading AIDS and other healthcare initiatives in Africa. Canada too has earned the right to be congratulated since signing the Universal declaration of Human Rights in 1948, it is not perfect but on many issues it has led the way.

4. 45 minutes ago the Brazilian Police tear gassed protesters outside the Spain-Italy match in earlier protests they used pepper spray and rubber bullets. Comparing Brazil and London like you have is a bit crass particularly when you mention that fugly Americanism "transportation". The proportion of a workers wages that transport in Brazil accounts for is way higher then a worker in London. You then have to realise that the Brazilian system is private not public like the underground in London, and that the companies providing transport in Brazil are being given massive tax subsidies so that the burden falls on the commuter. The Brazilians are protesting because indigenous people are being displaced and the elite are being made richer and FIFA are making it worse. So Blatter threatens to cancel it and 80,000 turn uo to protest that. Then factor in the fact that the Brazilian human rights commissioner is a racist, sexist, homophobe and so they protest against that. The bourgeoisie are whipping up hatred against the radical left and the middle classes and media are hijacking protests with their own agenda. The right wing are mobilising too etc etc it is way more complicated than you make out.

The crux of my issue with your posts though is your bullshit assertion that the UK is full of placid docile idiots that never protest.Britain is nowhere near as populous as Brazil so numbers can't be compared but the 2011 march for the alternative, ant-cuts protest drew 500,000 people, In 2003, 750,000 people thronged the streets of London for the Anti Iraq war rally ,The poll tax riots with over 200.000 participants happened in 1990 not the 80's, and people up and down the country continue to exercise their right to protest every day.

[Gandalf]

1. Nobody has said Russia is a bastion of free speech. As long as Snowden is safe, then that is good enough for me. If Russia is willing to chip in then I am glad of that.

2. The second line is quite wonderful and is absolutely true.

3. I disagree with you on these points. The Assange case alone has shown how dodgy the Swedes are. As for Britain and Canada, both have been lurching ever more right and are largely seen as US stooges. If we are to talk of human rights and the UK, you only have to bring up the torture of Iraqi's and the training of the Khymer Rouge to deploy mines against civilians, the propping up of Apartheid South Africa and the continued ignorance of Palestinian human rights. Or do you mean human rights in Britain itself? A country in which you can say boo to a goose and get arrested, get detained for a month without provision of evidence against you, and cannot even protest in London without special permission. It is a joke of a country and you are blind if you cannot see that.

4. Transportation is a word. Get over it and stop being so pedantic. British public transportation is also largely privatised and costs an arm and a leg. Brazilians are upset about the first increase since 2011 and it went up 6% which is well below inflation. Now you compare how much prices rise in the UK and you know full well how expensive it is. I don't know for sure, but I struggle to imagine any (or many) countries with such costly public transportation the globe over. If you have a car getting to work is expensive. If you take the bus or train it is just as expensive. Again, you seem to take these stands without knowing what it is like in other countries. Korean public transportation and car costs are cheap. When people are getting scammed they should take to the streets and people in the UK do not protest these kinds of things. The things that are affecting them daily. Britain has been privatised and is expensive, the NHS is kind of going the same way with doctors preferring not to treat people and referring them to private practices.

Sure there were significant numbers over Iraq years ago, but the people lost and they have been dwindling ever since. Also, with kettling and protesting rights getting harder and harder, you are seeing the numbers tumble. Student protests? Bankers? Diminishing returns and more and more ignored by the media.

You have some kind of pride in your country and don't like how me and Brockton are hacking away at it with evidence, honesty and a little bombast. It's all largely true and I can imagine how prickly it can make one feel.

I see the Queen has got herself a raise of 5% too. For what exactly, I do not know, but everyone else must suffer and the monarchy continues freely. Good old tradition eh, just as long as we have the national anthem, a monarchy, tradition and the memory of the war to make us feel better about something. We have to feel we are in it for the right reasons otherwise, you have nothing left but the stark reality that the power shift has gone quite a bit too far to the other side.

[Gandalf]

Also I get sick of hearing how wonderful the NHS is, when it is anything but so. It isn't a free service and you pay for your prescription medications to the hilt. I live in a developed country with a semi-national health care system (you will pay a portion of any surgery), and yet my medicine costs me 10 pounds a month here. In the great NHS system, I had to pay 26 pounds for a month of medicine. See, even that is largely a con. The British are paying a fortune when the propaganda will tell you how cheap and free that it all is. Not really. Again, most Brits probably don't know the deal in other countries, and probably think that their lives are as good as it gets. It's nonsense. Massive taxes and then the rest of the money goes on rents, bills, transport and the like and those taxes are used to police you and commit all kinds of junk in your good name.

[VictorCharlie]

Brits paying for a prescriptions is interesting. I always assumed the single-payer system there covered all medical expenses.

[Gandalf]

Brits paying for a prescriptions is interesting. I always assumed the single-payer system there covered all medical expenses.

It was all new to me too and shows how long I have been away and how the changes have been whittling through. I booked an appointment and saw a doctor which was free at the point of use (I was still registered with my local practice) and then on getting my medicine found it was 250% more expensive than here. Also after asking to be referred to a specialist they said I would have to go private and that just to see a doctor would be 50 pounds. They are making the money through prescriptions and if you have a waiting list are telling you to think about going private.

[brocktonblockbust]

Beanz why are u so extreme? I didnt say you had to agree with Alex Jones or David Reptilian Overlord Icke. Please Beanz, dont put words in my mouth and get your cock out of here too Beanz all I am saying is where is your outrage about the POINTS I and Miles and Jones and whoever else are making? Dont get lost in the Alex Jones or WHOEVER-denigrating, who cares WHICH idiot spoke the truth? My question was what are your thoughts about the whole Snowden thing? Any outrage? Any realization that now this stuff is true? While a few months or years ago when Jones and others was out there shouting like a lunatic about this stuff, that most people said it was all bullshit and untrue?

YOu cannot completely dismiss someone like Jones if he is getting alot of this stuff right. IS he a loudmouth idiot who as Lyle says undermines his own cause? He sure IS. But please, instead of focusing on that view, why not give everyone and anyone (even those we dont like---as I have done with Tyson Fury in another thread) why not be openminded and give some credit where it is due? You're so wanting to dismiss anything for example Jones says, that when he does get some things really right, and get them earlier than most people, you cannot even give him any props for his efforts.

Plus when you do that, you take away the focus on what the actual issues are. Who cares who the messenger was? The message is that Snowden is being hunted down by the US like a fucking dengue mosquito, when in fact he is an American Hero for revealing that the Creeping Surveillance State was well-underway and behind our backs, and to a point and degree that is shocking beyond belief.

Thats all Im saying. So if Tyson Fury had been mouthing off over the past few years that the govt was doing something and indeed it came true, I could care less if I hate the guy or not, Id give him credit for being the first for championing that thing. Thats what Im saying Beanz.

[Beanz]

Beanz why are u so extreme? I didnt say you had to agree with Alex Jones or David Reptilian Overlord Icke. Please Beanz, dont put words in my mouth and get your cock out of here too Beanz all I am saying is where is your outrage about the POINTS I and Miles and Jones and whoever else are making? Dont get lost in the Alex Jones or WHOEVER-denigrating, who cares WHICH idiot spoke the truth? My question was what are your thoughts about the whole Snowden thing? Any outrage? Any realization that now this stuff is true? While a few months or years ago when Jones and others was out there shouting like a lunatic about this stuff, that most people said it was all bullshit and untrue?

YOu cannot completely dismiss someone like Jones if he is getting alot of this stuff right. IS he a loudmouth idiot who as Lyle says undermines his own cause? He sure IS. But please, instead of focusing on that view, why not give everyone and anyone (even those we dont like---as I have done with Tyson Fury in another thread) why not be openminded and give some credit where it is due? You're so wanting to dismiss anything for example Jones says, that when he does get some things really right, and get them earlier than most people, you cannot even give him any props for his efforts.

Plus when you do that, you take away the focus on what the actual issues are. Who cares who the messenger was? The message is that Snowden is being hunted down by the US like a fucking dengue mosquito, when in fact he is an American Hero for revealing that the Creeping Surveillance State was well-underway and behind our backs, and to a point and degree that is shocking beyond belief.

Thats all Im saying. So if Tyson Fury had been mouthing off over the past few years that the govt was doing something and indeed it came true, I could care less if I hate the guy or not, Id give him credit for being the first for championing that thing. Thats what Im saying Beanz.

It is almost pointless trying to have a conversation with you on these subjects. I am not putting words on your mouth Alex Jones is. Nearly everything you post on current affairs or politics comes from INFOWARS. How is that open minded? Do you not think that most people have realised that they are being monitored for years ? Jones himself takes away the focus because like Kirkland has already pointed out, the real story is not about the individual, it is about the abuse of power and the controlling hand of vested business. It was the mainstream media in the guise of The Guardian that published on both the Manning and Snowden stories but Assange and Jones have done their best to obfuscate the issues and you and Gandalf are dancing to their tune. Assange refuses to be interviewed unless he is paid handsomely, what does that tell you about his motives ?

How can Snowden be an American hero? I thought America had no ideals worth fighting for?

[Beanz]

1. Nobody has said Russia is a bastion of free speech. As long as Snowden is safe, then that is good enough for me. If Russia is willing to chip in then I am glad of that.

2. The second line is quite wonderful and is absolutely true.

3. I disagree with you on these points. The Assange case alone has shown how dodgy the Swedes are. As for Britain and Canada, both have been lurching ever more right and are largely seen as US stooges. If we are to talk of human rights and the UK, you only have to bring up the torture of Iraqi's and the training of the Khymer Rouge to deploy mines against civilians, the propping up of Apartheid South Africa and the continued ignorance of Palestinian human rights. Or do you mean human rights in Britain itself? A country in which you can say boo to a goose and get arrested, get detained for a month without provision of evidence against you, and cannot even protest in London without special permission. It is a joke of a country and you are blind if you cannot see that.

4. Transportation is a word. Get over it and stop being so pedantic. British public transportation is also largely privatised and costs an arm and a leg. Brazilians are upset about the first increase since 2011 and it went up 6% which is well below inflation. Now you compare how much prices rise in the UK and you know full well how expensive it is. I don't know for sure, but I struggle to imagine any (or many) countries with such costly public transportation the globe over. If you have a car getting to work is expensive. If you take the bus or train it is just as expensive. Again, you seem to take these stands without knowing what it is like in other countries. Korean public transportation and car costs are cheap. When people are getting scammed they should take to the streets and people in the UK do not protest these kinds of things. The things that are affecting them daily. Britain has been privatised and is expensive, the NHS is kind of going the same way with doctors preferring not to treat people and referring them to private practices.

Sure there were significant numbers over Iraq years ago, but the people lost and they have been dwindling ever since. Also, with kettling and protesting rights getting harder and harder, you are seeing the numbers tumble. Student protests? Bankers? Diminishing returns and more and more ignored by the media.

You have some kind of pride in your country and don't like how me and Brockton are hacking away at it with evidence, honesty and a little bombast. It's all largely true and I can imagine how prickly it can make one feel.

I see the Queen has got herself a raise of 5% too. For what exactly, I do not know, but everyone else must suffer and the monarchy continues freely. Good old tradition eh, just as long as we have the national anthem, a monarchy, tradition and the memory of the war to make us feel better about something. We have to feel we are in it for the right reasons otherwise, you have nothing left but the stark reality that the power shift has gone quite a bit too far to the other side.

You speak with big forked tongue and heap up big lies

1. What are you interested in free speech or jumping on a bandwagon? You can not justify the Russian moral vacuum and abuses of power that have crushed free speech by pointing to their allowances in the case of a single foreigner with valuable information.

3. What a load of racist drivel. The criminal case against a lone individual who they wish to try in open court does nothing to impinge upon the thousands of lives saved over countless years by a country that you obviously knew fuck all about until your boyfriend Julian went and committed a crime there. You seem to be pro torture when Saddam does it and anti torture when a white man does it ? Is that true ? it's quite hard to follow you wavering moral pendulum. Just as hard to fathom as your wanting to pin every human rights abuse on earth to the UK just because you hate yourself so much. You really should be Jewish or Catholic. Apartheid, nothing to do with the Dutch or white south Africans - all Britain's fault, Palestine - nothing to do with the rest of the middle east and Isreal - all the fault of the UK

4. The proportion of wealth in the UK and Brazil are incomparable. Again you show your ignorance. The Rate of inflation has nothing to do with it. Korean transport has nothing to do with it. I use public transport in London and the UK quite often so I realise it is expensive but I would never compare my own situation to that of somebody in Brazil. If you look at the random protests that I mentioned you will notice that they actually increased in number not decreased. The NHS is something to be proud of but what it can not cope with is foreign scammers like yourself trying to take advantage of it as a health tourist whilst complaining about immigrants doing the same thing. Your snobbish assumptions are all very middle class and rootless. Using terms like "your Country" just reveals how sad and desperate you have become. You obviously love Korea because it is homogenised and safe. That's fine for such a middle of the road traditionalist like yourself it probably feels very cosy and you can be all nostalgic and refer to the national anthem, the Queen and the war all the time. The stark reality is those things are not and never were what defines Britain or the experience of its people. It might make you feel all prickly, but I am nothing like the person you describe.

[Gandalf]

Greenbeanz, your post is pathetic. You are all defensive because your country is everything that I say it is and you hate the fact that there is truth to what I say. I do not tell lies and tell it how it is. I responded to your points as has BBB, but it is you who are happy in your own little comfort zone.

1. I have responded and made my point. Nobody has defended Russia, but merely said good on them for helping out.

2. Racist? Oh dear. Planet Greenbeanz as Alan Dershowitz might quip.

3. You have added nothing there either. The UK is very, very expensive. Just admit that British people spend a fortune on merely getting to work and back.

I am not a foreign scammer and they wouldn't know it if I was. Again, you are defensive about the fact that the NHS is partly sold off and is charging people exorbitant prices. Like all areas of British life. And again it is all true.

I'm a bit busy this weekend, so have probably short changed you there. Needless, to say I would typically say a lot more. There is a lot to chew at in your post.

[Beanz]

So what you actually meant was, the UK is very expensive not, the UK is a Police State ?

[Beanz]

"I am not a foreign scammer and they wouldn't know it if I was."

So you are a foreign scammer then ?

[Beanz]

"you are defensive about the fact that the NHS is partly sold off"

It is still much better than most other countries and as somebody with a long term health condition who is the primary carer for a disabled Mrs, I am well aware of how much more difficult and expensive it would be for us to access the same level of healthcare in another country.

[Beanz]

None of this has much to do with Edward Snowden.

[Gandalf]

I have my computer and time now, so I can respond more clearly.

In regards to your final point, you can compare transportation costs to the extent that using it gobbles up a lot of your income in both countries. However, clearly the average person in Brazil has a considerably harsher situation than somebody in the UK. Someone with an hour plus commute everyday and doing a pretty average job is no doubt spending a small fortune in commuting costs in Britain and yes, moreso in Brazil in relative terms. That is where I brought in affordable transportation as you can have excellent and affordable transportation and none of that late slow train British nonsense, but a high speed rail network that will have you from North to South in no time. If you don't book days in advance in the UK you will spend 100 pounds plus for the same thing. It is absurd and you know it is. Completely out of control.

Britain is expensive and as has been clearly revealed now by mainstream media, it also has the hallmarks of a police state. You can disagree with that all you like, but they are monitering you. The surveillance alone is a telltale sign and with all the anti-terror nonsense Britain has quit with the pretence at being anything other than a police state. It has become increasingly fascistic. In the past it only really displayed itself in abhorrent foreign policy practices, but increasingly you are seeing it in government and secret service behaviours at home. You know all this.

Also, I resent the notion of being called a 'foreign scammer'. For all my criticism I am British and that is what it is. I have never tried to scam Britain. I seldom used the NHS. I returned home last year as you know and the medication I use does not allow for extended prescription. I had to go to a doctor in the UK and it was one that I have been registered with for many years and I duly paid my expensive prescription costs. It is a fact that it is expensive and I don't understand why you would get petty over that. I didn't return home to get major surgery or anything like that, so pack that in. You should be better than that. Things have changed and for the worse and it is a valid observation that prescriptions are expensive and they do refer you to private practice first. I have observed it firsthand as a British citizen. Furthermore, you would find plenty of developed countries to give yourself and your family effective treatment without fleecing you. It is largely America with the health care cost issues.

All of that though is a deflection and as you rightly admit is not related to the curious case of Edward Snowden. I also don't dance to anybodies tune either. The key thing is do you trust your secret service agencies and do you agree with them going after Snowden rather than reflecting, which as we know is not an American strongpoint.