Congratulations Egypt!

[El Kabong]

What difference does it make what Obama says? How does anything the American President say "legitimise" anything? The fuckers won a democratic election. They got legitimised by the people of Egypt.

...you're being more than a tad naïve here

[Kirkland Laing]

What difference does it make what Obama says? How does anything the American President say "legitimise" anything? The fuckers won a democratic election. They got legitimised by the people of Egypt.

...you're being more than a tad naïve here

In what way?

[El Kabong]

The United States supported Mubarak, yes?

And then when the people rose up, Obama called for him to step down right?

And then when they had elections Obama stood with the winner Morsi, correct?

Then when there were demonstrators calling for Morsi to step aside Obama said nothing, correct?

And when the military first threatened to overthrow Morsi, Obama told them not to right?

And then when the military was going to do whatever the hell it wanted to Obama told Morsi to step aside, right?


For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone. Obama just thinks his opinion on every damn thing is the most important thing ever...don't be a fair weather supporter of dictators, it's poor form.

It's best for Egypt to have the military in charge, since their revolution it has been all the Egyptians have known.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

The people didn't get rid of Morsi, the army did.

This is a bit of a dilemma: no matter whether we like it or not, the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood were voted into power through Egypt's first ever free elections.

'Some' people (and we have no idea how many, nor what proportion of the population they were, came out on the streets to protest. The Army then intervened and - technically - carried out a military coup.

I'm not sure we would think that was OK usually.

So ...... democracy is a good thing - as long as you vote the right people in. If you make a mistake and vote in a useless government (and I can think of a few times this has happened in Western democracies), then it's OK to act undemocratically in the name of democracy?

Confused

um, poll tax?

maybe people should actually listen to the people who live there and not the snippets on the news over here.

The egyptian people acted in a way that probably scares western govts. The way you lot are acting is as if they should have sat back and continue to wreck the country for a few more years?

The thing I like about you is that you always have an opinion, and you stand by it.

Other people do too, though

The poll tax was not in any way comparable to what happened in Egypt. I don't recall the Army removing the government?

Incidentally, I lived in the middle east for 12 years, and worked as a Divemaster in Egypt for another 5. I speak fluent Arabic and have many close Egyptian friends all over Egypt who I have been communicating with to check they are OK. I think I know enough about Egypt first hand to have a view as valid as yours

then you'll know the western media has been pretty much pro MB /mowsi despite the killings they've been carrying out?

The army supported the will of the people, what's more democratic than that? They acted with conscience, shame ours don't.



and you've NOT answered the question, do you think the people of egypt should have sat round for another 3 years or so and watched their country go further down the shitter?

The day after he got booted out food prices dropped!

Just because the people of egypt don't see democracy on your terms doesn't make it undemocratic. They see it as democratic, not a coup.

If you were still there as a dive master you'd be out of a job since most of the tourists have fucked off.

Yep, the Western media have been pro Morsi (and Mubarak was a creation of the West, just like most of the more recent Arab dictators)... and, yep, I would be out of a job because the tourists haven't been going there for about 4 years now because of the unrest. Last year was a good one for the tourist trade, but this will have frightened people away again for the next few years. Loads of people there depend on tourism

However ..... the army carried out the will of the army (not of 'the people'). It's very fragmented over there so I'm not sure anybody (including Egyptians) really knows what 'the will of the people is' even if some sort of consensus existed.

Food prices dropped because the interim government increased the subsidy on food, which they can't afford to do for long. It will rise again soon.

I think we are disagreeing on what 'democracy' means. My point was that kicking Morsi out (putting aside what he was like etc) was undemocratic. Strictly speaking, the Egyptians SHOULD have sat around while their country was going down the shitter .... that's what democracy is. You vote someone in for an agreed term of power. Democracy also says you can oust them through a vote of no confidence. They didn't do that, they tried to start another revolution until the army shat itself and got involved.

Im not saying that was the right thing to do, but my point is that it is not democratic for the army to choose to boot out elected politicians.

At least lets not pretend that what is happening, and going to happen is in any way democratic, because it isn't. The Egyptians might eventually arrive at the right answer for their country, but it wont be democracy in action.

Haver you ever been to North Africa, or Egypt ...... I am not goading you or anything, but most of our views are usually formed from the snippets of poorly reported vested-interest news there is. I was in Dahab when it was bombed and I was disgusted by the hordes of well fed journalists who descended on the place, looking for a story with no regard for people's loss or misery. They spent most of the time in 5 star hotels dining on expenses and when I actually watched the BBC News 24 service while I was there, it bore no resemblance to what I could see out of the window

we are putting a western view of democracy on to a people who reject the label coup.
um hello, bellydancer here, cairo is our mecca.
the army would have had to choose a side, they stood back and responded to the people.

The west is so hypocritical, we support 'coups' when we like, support dictators when we like. It's bollocks/

[El Kabong]

The west is so hypocritical, we support 'coups' when we like, support dictators when we like. It's bollocks

Pretty much.....but their military does a decent job, Morsi wouldn't have. Their military have incentive to do well and keep things stable, they get money and weapons from the West namely the United States.

I'd RATHER not give them such dangerous play things, but if they keep the peace with Israel it works

[El Kabong]

anyone else think we should change 'obama' to something funny to make lyle's rants more tolerable.

He's is a poor leader....are you attempting to say otherwise Missy?

All of your leaders are poor, so at least be consistent with that argument. Also, the only reason you want 'allies' in the middle east is to sustain oil supply. You couldn't care less about Egyptian democracy in the past so I find it interesting that you now have an interest when Obama can be attached to it. America has always been in support of non-democratic regimes in the middle east in order to maintain an oil supply that is cheap. Israel and Egypt are about the region cogs working nicely and little more. Obama is like all recent Presidents in that he has next to no interest in Egyptian democracy. On that basis you cannot make Obama a special case. If you are to argue that Obama should be in support of democracy then you should apply it to all the nations that America deals with and democracy is the least of their concerns in most cases.

Fine miles....I don't want their oil I want AMERICAN oil. Obama isn't the only President with a poor record in the Middle East BUT he was sold to the American people as a Messiah... I never bought into that. I'm quite pleased to own the Egyptian military if it means continued peace with Israel. We did support Mubarak but due to that we Obama included should allow the Egyptians to do their own thing we didn't need to say dick about Morsi all that could have come from that was bad.....and what do you know it did. Democracy is mob rule I want Republics! That way the minorities keep their rights.

Happy miles?? I do fucking hope so...the ice melted in my Papa Doble typing that you bastard

Oi cunt!@ miles I answered your questions you ass......and you owe me a drink and you can go back and answer whatever questions I asked....if you don't I'll simply hound you until you've been driven mad

Ta

[Gandalf]

The United States supported Mubarak, yes?

And then when the people rose up, Obama called for him to step down right?

And then when they had elections Obama stood with the winner Morsi, correct?

Then when there were demonstrators calling for Morsi to step aside Obama said nothing, correct?

And when the military first threatened to overthrow Morsi, Obama told them not to right?

And then when the military was going to do whatever the hell it wanted to Obama told Morsi to step aside, right?


For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone. Obama just thinks his opinion on every damn thing is the most important thing ever...don't be a fair weather supporter of dictators, it's poor form.

It's best for Egypt to have the military in charge, since their revolution it has been all the Egyptians have known.

Is this the post I am being referred to? Well, I don't need to nap on it. It is much better than your earlier post and I appreciate it. You have crawled into Chomsky land with some of your statements, and that is pretty cool of you Imo.

[Gandalf]

I fail to see what explaination, I am meant to give. I have been as honest as I can be and struggle to see the explanation I am meant to give. Was it me saying that Lyle was non-patriotic?

[Kirkland Laing]

The United States supported Mubarak, yes?

And then when the people rose up, Obama called for him to step down right?

And then when they had elections Obama stood with the winner Morsi, correct?

Then when there were demonstrators calling for Morsi to step aside Obama said nothing, correct?

And when the military first threatened to overthrow Morsi, Obama told them not to right?

And then when the military was going to do whatever the hell it wanted to Obama told Morsi to step aside, right?


For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone. Obama just thinks his opinion on every damn thing is the most important thing ever...don't be a fair weather supporter of dictators, it's poor form.

It's best for Egypt to have the military in charge, since their revolution it has been all the Egyptians have known.

No, this is your own idea of history and has no basis in reality. Obama did everything he could to support Mubarak including shipping in quantities of riot control gear to help the regime stay in power. This backfired when US-manufacured tear gas canisters were photographed by the protestors and put on the internet. America's official position was that they were "taking no sides" between the dictatorship and the unarmed protestors. Obama was criticised by opportunistic GOP politicians at the time for supporting dictatorship ahead of democracy.

Joe Biden says Egypt's Mubarak no dictator, he shouldn't step down... - CSMonitor.com


And yes, Obamarecognised the democratically-elected winner of democratic elections. You're still refusing to explain what else he could have done.

Obama didn't tell the Egyptian military not to overthrow Morsi. When Mubarak lost power America sent billions of dollars and political consultants to help mould politicians they like and to make them popular in Egypt. In conjunction with the Saudis, who own most Egyptian media, America has been working with the Egyptian army who own a big chunk of Egyptian business to undermine Morsi, make pro-America/Israel politicians popular and create the conditions that led to the current coup.

So as usual you're completely fucking wrong about everything.

[El Kabong]

The United States supported Mubarak, yes?

And then when the people rose up, Obama called for him to step down right?

And then when they had elections Obama stood with the winner Morsi, correct?

Then when there were demonstrators calling for Morsi to step aside Obama said nothing, correct?

And when the military first threatened to overthrow Morsi, Obama told them not to right?

And then when the military was going to do whatever the hell it wanted to Obama told Morsi to step aside, right?


For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone. Obama just thinks his opinion on every damn thing is the most important thing ever...don't be a fair weather supporter of dictators, it's poor form.

It's best for Egypt to have the military in charge, since their revolution it has been all the Egyptians have known.

Is this the post I am being referred to? Well, I don't need to nap on it. It is much better than your earlier post and I appreciate it. You have crawled into Chomsky land with some of your statements, and that is pretty cool of you Imo.

No....no it isn't.

And Chomsky is a sniveling little twat defending "Speech codes"...here's some Free Speech for him, FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON!

[El Kabong]

No, this is your own idea of history and has no basis in reality. Obama did everything he could to support Mubarak including shipping in quantities of riot control gear to help the regime stay in power. This backfired when US-manufacured tear gas canisters were photographed by the protestors and put on the internet. America's official position was that they were "taking no sides" between the dictatorship and the unarmed protestors. Obama was criticised by opportunistic GOP politicians at the time for supporting dictatorship ahead of democracy.

Joe Biden says Egypt's Mubarak no dictator, he shouldn't step down... - CSMonitor.com


And yes, Obamarecognised the democratically-elected winner of democratic elections. You're still refusing to explain what else he could have done.

Obama didn't tell the Egyptian military not to overthrow Morsi. When Mubarak lost power America sent billions of dollars and political consultants to help mould politicians they like and to make them popular in Egypt. In conjunction with the Saudis, who own most Egyptian media, America has been working with the Egyptian army who own a big chunk of Egyptian business to undermine Morsi, make pro-America/Israel politicians popular and create the conditions that led to the current coup.

So as usual you're completely fucking wrong about everything.

Oh you got me...JOE BIDEN said something well let me just change everything I wrote I mean JOE BIDEN is such a fucking genius that's why he's allowed to speak for Obama all the time right?



"White House plans to keep up the pressure on Hosni Mubarak".......hmmmm yes, that sounds exactly like support doesn't it?

[Kirkland Laing]

Obama's official position was that Mubarak had to listen to the people and make concessions to their demands -- but to stay in power. And he did everything he could to keep Mubarak in power.

So what could Obama have done other than recognise the recognised winner of the democratic election? And exactly what the fuck does this mean :

For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone.

One minute you're saying Obama should ignore Egypt, the next minute you're saying he should refuse to recognise a democratically elected leader and keep the army in power. Are you syure your Obama hatred hasn't just shorted your brainb?

[El Kabong]

Obama's official position was that Mubarak had to listen to the people and make concessions to their demands -- but to stay in power. And he did everything he could to keep Mubarak in power.

So what could Obama have done other than recognise the recognised winner of the democratic election? And exactly what the fuck does this mean :

For the "Leader of the Free World" to be that weak, that gullible, and that egocentric to think that HIS opinion of Egypt matters more than that of the people of Egypt......it makes America look bad especially considering Libya, Syria, Turkey, and our picking and choosing where we want to get involved....just leave those places/people alone.

One minute you're saying Obama should ignore Egypt, the next minute you're saying he should refuse to recognise a democratically elected leader and keep the army in power. Are you syure your Obama hatred hasn't just shorted your brainb?

Oh you know Obama's official position do you? Impressive....not what I saw/heard him say on the video but hey whatever don't let that stop you from ONCE AGAIN SUPPORTING OBAMA

How about nothing? Nothing is an option is it not? Just be like "I run the US, not Egypt, I have no say in what happens there, but they are an ally and we wish them the best"....how's that?

Hamas was democratically elected to run the Gaza strip aren't recognized by the US...so it's not like NOT recognizing a country with a bad choice of leadership (even if democratically elected) is anything new to the US.

And see here's the MAIN fucking issue, everyone that will say "Well the US should keep to itself" yeah and then the world starts asking questions and demanding answers....how about the rest of the world try to solve a few problems huh?

[Howlin Mad Missy]

..also no baiting, there's enough of that on the forum. As thread bitch, yes, I'm playing hell with my big mod stick, but cut this shit out or you will be on the naughty step.

This thread was to bring attention to what is going on in egypt now, not to get in to shit about trade agreements/chomsky etc. It is about the biased reporting, it is about how the western media seems to have taken the muslim brotherhood's POV, case in point, western press reported that protesters stormed the/a MB building...what they failed to report it was stormed AFTER shots were fired out from that building in to the crowd.

[Kirkland Laing]

I've mentioned how in the buildup/start of the Iraq war all US TV channels had an American flag superimposed on the screen and a patriotic tagline running above the ticker. Currently all Egyptian TV channels have a little Egyptian flag and slogans like "United Against Terrorism" on the screen. US political consultants have obviously been busy.

The Muslim Brotherhood have gone from being the democratically elected government of Egypt to terrorists in the space of a week. They're going to be banned from any elections and new undemocratic elections will produce a US/army-approved puppet government backed by Saudi/Gulf money that's a front for the army dictatorship that has ruled the country for ahlf a century.

In the last election 50% of the country voted for the Brotherhood and another 25% voted for the even more conservative Salafist Nour party. Clearly the vast majority of Egyptian voters are religious conservatives. They're now being given an object lesson that democracy isn't something they're allowed to have and that the superpower propping up the dictatorship that represses them fears and hates them and will never see them as anything except a threat. Them and their brethren all over the Arab and Muslim world. This is only going to create new terrorism and terrorist attacks. Plus what happens in Egypt when the new government turns out to be Mubrarak redux?

Two good articles to read about what's happening in Egypt :

The apparently miraculous end to the crippling energy shortages, and the re-emergence of the police, seems to show that the legions of personnel left in place after former President Hosni Mubarak was ousted in 2011 played a significant role — intentionally or not — in undermining the overall quality of life under the Islamist administration of Mr. Morsi.

Working behind the scenes, members of the old establishment, some of them close to Mr. Mubarak and the country’s top generals, also helped finance, advise and organize those determined to topple the Islamist leadership, including Naguib Sawiris, a billionaire and an outspoken foe of the Brotherhood; Tahani El-Gebali, a former judge on the Supreme Constitutional Court who is close to the ruling generals; and Shawki al-Sayed, a legal adviser to Ahmed Shafik, Mr. Mubarak’s last prime minister, who lost the presidential race to Mr. Morsi.

[…]




While he failed to broaden his appeal and build any kind of national consensus, he also faced an active campaign by those hostile to his leadership, including some of the wealthiest and most powerful pillars of the Mubarak era.
Mr. Sawiris, one of Egypt’s richest men and a titan of the old establishment, said Wednesday that he had supported an upstart group called “tamarrod,” Arabic for “rebellion,” that led a petition drive seeking Mr. Morsi’s ouster. He donated use of the nationwide offices and infrastructure of the political party he built, the Free Egyptians. He provided publicity through his popular television network and his major interest in Egypt’s largest private newspaper. He even commissioned the production of a popular music video that played heavily on his network.
“Tamarrod did not even know it was me!” he said. “I am not ashamed of it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/wo...?smid=tw-share

Exclusive: US bankrolled anti-Morsi activists - Features - Al Jazeera English