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Thread: "Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: "Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    As a reply to several comments...
    -RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
    -Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
    -reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
    -hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.
    Are you suggesting that athleticism, however we define it, doesn't play a role in making a successful boxer?

    Can a great trainer create a beautiful boxer who doesn't have a ton of athletic ability? Absolutely. If you are arguing skill is more important than athleticism in boxing, you won't get much argument from me, but most of the time, the elite guys have something special athletically. Perhaps it is god-given punching power, or incredible reflexes, or amazing sense of depth, or really fast hands, but usually there is an athletic quality or two that make a fighter special.
    You are on to it there. there is innate power in boxing, just like in baseball. you can improve it, but some guys are born with it, but that, in and of itself, doesn't make you great, in either activity. reflexes are sport specific; some people are more pre disposed to pick up that skill quickly than are others. fast hands... give me a few days and i can give you freaking FAST hands, not to mention power that you won't understand. Because I know how to teach your feet and your hips and your shoulders. It isn't hard.
    But the thing I am getting at is this...The quality to not only know how to punch hard, slip, bob weave, counter, all that, but to do it with an equally skilled and trained opponent trying to knock you out. And not only that, but, if you are really good, to deliberately expose yourself with the idea that it makes him easier to hit. THAt requires a mind set that is very rare, a willingness to expose one's self to harm that isn't common.
    I understand where you're coming from. I guess I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Gray - but you have to admit that there some people have faster hands than others, right? Also, are you suggesting that a "faster" boxer is typically one who knows how to combine the "feet, hips and shoulder movement" better than someone else?

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    Default Re: "Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by DavilaJones View Post
    I would attribute it to things that would be important in all sports:

    Hands & Eyes Coordination
    Balance
    Endurance
    Strength
    Speed of mind and of body
    Basically, this.

    Athleticism is a broad term but basically means they have some or all physical gifts that translate from sport to sport.

    It could be an absolute term or a relative term.

    For example, you can tell that Wladimir Klitschko would do better in more sports compared to other modern heavyweights

    You have guys like a young Ali or, who were fast and, maybe more importantly incredibly balletic.
    Plus you also had guys like Mike Tyson, who had extraordinary speed and power. Plus considerable upper-body movement)

    Then you had guys like Manny and Roy who just put it all together.
    Last edited by Jimanuel Boogustus; 08-21-2013 at 08:59 AM.
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    Default Re: "Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    As a reply to several comments...
    -RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
    -Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
    -reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
    -hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.
    Are you suggesting that athleticism, however we define it, doesn't play a role in making a successful boxer?

    Can a great trainer create a beautiful boxer who doesn't have a ton of athletic ability? Absolutely. If you are arguing skill is more important than athleticism in boxing, you won't get much argument from me, but most of the time, the elite guys have something special athletically. Perhaps it is god-given punching power, or incredible reflexes, or amazing sense of depth, or really fast hands, but usually there is an athletic quality or two that make a fighter special.
    You are on to it there. there is innate power in boxing, just like in baseball. you can improve it, but some guys are born with it, but that, in and of itself, doesn't make you great, in either activity. reflexes are sport specific; some people are more pre disposed to pick up that skill quickly than are others. fast hands... give me a few days and i can give you freaking FAST hands, not to mention power that you won't understand. Because I know how to teach your feet and your hips and your shoulders. It isn't hard.
    But the thing I am getting at is this...The quality to not only know how to punch hard, slip, bob weave, counter, all that, but to do it with an equally skilled and trained opponent trying to knock you out. And not only that, but, if you are really good, to deliberately expose yourself with the idea that it makes him easier to hit. THAt requires a mind set that is very rare, a willingness to expose one's self to harm that isn't common.
    I understand where you're coming from. I guess I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Gray - but you have to admit that there some people have faster hands than others, right? Also, are you suggesting that a "faster" boxer is typically one who knows how to combine the "feet, hips and shoulder movement" better than someone else?
    Sure, some people are naturally 'faster' but I think that really only means better coordinated, especially when that 'fast' is displayed in some activity, like throwing punches.
    A lot of attention is paid to 'fast hands', but there is more to it. Try and punch with just your hands- can't do it for long, can't punch hard, not too fast either. But you start turning your shoulders to drive your hands and that all changes- you can throw short fast hard punches because your body is driving them, from the feet up.
    I'm not explaining myself well at all...

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    Default Re: "Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

    Some great entries in this thread.

    I’m not sure there can be a right or wrong answer here. Is this an inherited trait? I can’t even find a suitable definition other than that which seems to pop into all of our heads. @DavilaJones has a better definition then the dictionary. I thought of Jones immediately in respect to boxing. Like a third eye at work. As others have referred to there is something else with the elite of the elite in sports generally. How did Sanders read the field like he did and make those cuts? Freakin Matrix. Some of Gretzky’s passes were not humanly possible and he could put the puck dead to rights w/o a sound when it hit the stick. Jordan had something extra. And the guys like Martinez, Bo Jackson and Deion that made the elite level of two sports. I bet the Nfl teams are lining up to make a play for Bolt once he leaves track. Still some track super stars can’t catch a football. What of the decathletes? What if anything did Harry Wiley contribute to Robinson’s athleticism or Arcel to Duran or Benny Leonard?
    How much does chemistry as in peds play a role? I know you asked for boxing related but it’s hard not to look at the question in a broader sense. I think the case could be made that it’s something you are born with on the most fundamental level. Perfected over time in the chosen sport by honing in on its specific requirements. Trouble is, the case can also be made that much of it can be learned like in the Hopkins example. Or say Goldman’s tutelage of Marciano. It’s a real brain tease.

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