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Thread: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    I am sorry rocco, it was @imp who made comment that Klitschko's outweigh all their opponents!!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    Yes, I am convinced that Povetkin, Haye and Wach would have Ali converting back to Christianity When you face all comers, some repeatedly in an era, that's respectable. You can't pick the one you're born in. That's kook logic.
    Ali does in fact deserve the highest respect for this you are correct. He fought anywhere and he did not duck anyone (except of course a Foreman rematch but ducking a rematch is not as bad as ducking a fighter altogether). And of course it would be incredibly ridiculous of me to expect anything more from a past fighter than to beat the opponents of his own era (duh) but then again I am not the one making outrageous claims that those same past fighters would "take" Tyson, Lennox or K-bros. How many times have you seen a top 10 list with Muhammad at the top and Frazier and Foreman in top 5? Too many!

    As for your quip... I think,

    Povetkin UD Ali (10% punchers KO chance for Povetkin)
    Haye KO6 Ali (no punchers chance for Ali)
    Ali UD Wach (20% punchers chance for Wach)
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    the golden era had fighters who could take punches all night long and still come and knock your ass out.
    the klitschkos are not in that league of grit and determinationa and devotion. And if Ali can be accused of outsizing his opponents than for sure so can the klitschkuntz.

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    the golden era had fighters who could take punches all night long and still come and knock your ass out.
    the klitschkos are not in that league of grit and determinationa and devotion. And if Ali can be accused of outsizing his opponents than for sure so can the klitschkuntz.
    The golden era had fighters who, quote me, "could not punch through the surface tension of water" compared to modern opponents. Of COURSE they could take punches all night long. Were they to bring those chins along with their complete lack of defence into more powerful times they would mostly all be knocked out. It's just a fact mate! And it's a sign of the times. The 70's was a punch bag era. Unfortunately today the punches are so hard that a fighter cannot take that for rounds anymore, it is far easier to get KO'd today and that FORCES fighters to be better and more defensive today. They have no choice! If they make a mistake, they're gone! Back in those days, they literally stung like bees!

    Most of those guys, only a few exceptions, would pose zero punch threat whatsoever to a modern HW.

    George Foreman is the hardest puncher of the whole era encompassing the 60's and 70's to any reasonable person. His power was immense and I am certainly not knocking it. It's up there! But let's look at Foreman and bring him to reality. There is something peculiar about Foreman's KO's. He knocks his opponents down but they usually get back to their feet. His punches were not only arm punches but also push punches. They were not the grounded punches of Tommy Morrison or Mike Tyson nor were they the snapping punches of Wladimir Klitschko or LEnnox Lewis. When these guys strike the finishing shots, they REALLY knock their opponent the FO! They are concussed. So while I am not denying Foreman's total force in his shots, I think some modern HW's produce greater momentary impact force.

    Who else hits hard like a modern heavy in the golden age? Liston? Shavers? Their power is rated against bums and cruisers period. They never knocked out a decent opponent who was not coming off losses with the exception maybe of Ken Norton and that was because he was a walking knockout and it's not surprising because skill wise Sonny and Earnie were terrible boxers. Even big George (6'4" 220lbs- not really that big these days) made his name by destroying mostly very um... "special" opposition indeed!

    I've already established that Klitschko's only outweigh 50% of their opponents and their median opponent weight is about 10lbs less than themselves but still 30lbs heavier than the median opponent of Ali's! But since you pressed me it is true that the Klitschko's "out-tall" most all of their opponents and some declare their style and success depends on it.

    Well to that I say "obviously" and throw it straight back to Ali. Do you think Ali's speed and footwork would have allowed him to cruise (and then later struggle) through his career were it not allied to his height and reach? I would argue that Jerry Quarry was just as skilled as Ali but because he was a little guy it didn't work for him as well. Obviously the only way Foreman could get away with wildly swinging at his opponents with no recourse to strategy or technique was because he was bigger and stronger than his opponents. Were he not, he'd be screwed!
    Last edited by Max Power; 12-02-2013 at 11:14 AM.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    this is all coming from the guy that doesnt credit the opinion of any boxing historian or boxer if it goes against what he believes

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    I see little point to that long dribble of a post and what's there is completely moot, you can only be judged against the contemporaries of your era.

    If 60s-70s heavies had access to the drugs, nutrition and training methods of today then they'd be as 'big' as guys today. What? You thought athletes being larger today is down to evolution?

    The fact that you're even trying to compare guys who trained using half a century old sports science and nutrition (we'll ignore PEDs *cough* Vitali) to what we have TODAY says it all.

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Of the 61 fights that Clay/Ali fought 29 wouldn't be allowed nowadays as heavyweight because one or both opponents were below 200 lbs at the time of the bout. In other words they would run as cruiser fights (or below) and Klitschko wouldn't be allowed to stage them.

    Of the remaining 32 fights Ali lost 4.

    Of the remaining 28 fights Ali fought 10x against opponents LIGHTER than Eddie Chambers (Wladimir Klitschko's lightest opponent), thus today's fans would shout "they should move down to cruiserweight" and "it's proof of how the division sucks" or what a mismatch it is.

    Of the remaining 18 fights 2 wouldn't be allowed for medical reasons: Joe Frazier was blind on his left eye and Cleveland Williams was gunshot. Another proof of the "dire state of the division"

    Of the remaining 16 fights Ali couldn't KO his opponents in 10 fights (within 12 rounds) thus they would be "proof of how featherfisty Wlad is with a KO'ratio of 38%" and that "Marciano would KO this bum Wlad in 1 round"

    Of the remaining 6 fights 1 was a bum ·Charley Powell (25-11) which would be another proof for the "worst era in heavyweight boxing"

    Of the remaining 5 fights 2 were against guys coming off a loss (Ron Lyle, Alvin Lewis) and fans would accuse Wlad of "cherry-picking".

    Of the remaining 3 fights 2 were against a cruiser-bum beater (Sonny Liston) and fans would speculate about how the mob or Wladimir's radical Muslim friends have illegally influenced the outcome, since both endings (shoulder injury, phantom punch) were highly suspicious. Fans would complain that Sonny Liston didn't come to fight since he chickened out as soon as he saw fit.

    The remaining 1 fight was against an opponent who gassed in the heat and sultriness of the rain season in the rain forest (George Foreman) and fans would shout "Lame, nowadays heavies cannot go 15 rounds anymore like Joe Louis".

    That's approximately how Ali's record would be seen nowadays.

    There is an even simpler nutshell, that sums up even better the abysmal state of Ali's era:
    A guy with Parkinson's (Muhammad Ali) fighting against a 6-0 cruiser bum (Spinks, 197 lbs) for the unified heavyweight title…. and losing (and then avenging).

    THAT's all you need to know about The Golden Age of Heavyweight Boxing.
    Probably the lowest point in all heavyweight history!
    Why I dont bother with boxing forums much any more.

    I cant even be bothered to agrgue.
    Balls

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    The only way to really attempt to fairly compare heavyweight fighters from different eras is to use a Pound 4 Pound like system of comparison.

    Because the nutrition, training methods & steroids are all so different from one generation to another you have to level the playing field and imagine all the fighters being the same size and carrying their respective power and skill sets appropriately.
    So you have to imagine Big George Foreman being as big as a Klitchko. You have imagine him having the benefit contemporary science, medicine, nutrition and drugs like the Klits have had.

    You think Michael Grant could stand up to a 6'5, 250lb Joe Frazier? I don't think so.

    Lets stop the stupidity being shown in these posts.
    Last edited by ruthless rocco; 12-02-2013 at 09:59 PM.

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    Foreman had genuine and natural power, just because Grant may be bigger does not mean he hit harder. Power is also about technique, timing, surprise and speed. The calibre of top fighters in the 70's were better hence why they may not have great statistical records. Fighters today try and protect their 0.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    Hate to do this as Heavyweight Champ of the World Wladimir Klitschko must be respected: he has been The Man for a long time. However, this is relevant and pertinent to the discussion.

    He has been knocked down at least 12 times.

    In the history of Heavyweight Champions, only Floyd Patterson was knocked down more.


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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    Well he may be chinny but least he got the technique to win...Anyway thats asides the point. To the original thread starter, I'll say this. a divisions strength is relative. A boxer is as much an evolution of training as well as his competitors. If Wlad was in an era where heavyweights weren't terribly hard punchers his fighting style would be far drastic to what it is today, Same could be said of Ali if his opponents had far more foot speed.

    You cannot compare, you cannot with certainty even say who was better than who. "Why?" you might ask and the answer is simple, upsets happen all the time. Our perception of a boxers ability and the reality of whats going on in the ring will differ from time to time.

    I would recommend this instead, enjoy the fact that you're alive and well in an era where you see a superb technical heavyweight champion. People have a tendency in this forum to insult other boxers to make in an attempt to make their personal favourites shine more for some unholy reason.

    Ali's resume has no effect on Wlad's legacy or vice versa. Each is accomplished in their own way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamGB View Post
    I see little point to that long dribble of a post and what's there is completely moot, you can only be judged against the contemporaries of your era.

    If 60s-70s heavies had access to the drugs, nutrition and training methods of today then they'd be as 'big' as guys today. What? You thought athletes being larger today is down to evolution?

    The fact that you're even trying to compare guys who trained using half a century old sports science and nutrition (we'll ignore PEDs *cough* Vitali) to what we have TODAY says it all.
    Good point

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    Just a current example (cant believe im saying this) but manny pac is probably the smallest welterweight but he probably hits the hardest..(i like to believe its ped free)

    Same can be said for tyson.

    Size doesnt always matter. (In boxing)

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    I think the fact that Carnera had a glass jaw and Valuev couldn't punch his way out of a paperbag says a lot too...

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    Default Re: What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

    If 60s-70s heavies had access to the drugs, nutrition and training methods of today then they'd be as 'big' as guys today. What? You thought athletes being larger today is down to evolution?
    I've no doubt that this is the case and I'm not comparing a hypothetical army of golden age fighters. I'm comparing the "actual" ones because it's they who are usually used as the bench mark for "greatness".

    The only way to really attempt to fairly compare heavyweight fighters from different eras is to use a Pound 4 Pound like system of comparison.

    Because the nutrition, training methods & steroids are all so different from one generation to another you have to level the playing field and imagine all the fighters being the same size and carrying their respective power and skill sets appropriately.
    So you have to imagine Big George Foreman being as big as a Klitchko. You have imagine him having the benefit contemporary science, medicine, nutrition and drugs like the Klits have had.

    You think Michael Grant could stand up to a 6'5, 250lb Joe Frazier? I don't think so.
    Rocco in a way that IS kind of one of the points I'm getting at. It IS silly to compare them which is what OTHERS do in a favourable fashion since in reality the modern fighters are on average 1 or 2 weight ranges upward of what was previous. It would be like comparing a middleweight with a cruiser!.

    What a stupid statement, if Joe Frazier were 6'5" and 250lbs he would neither fight like the real Frazier, nor have the same balance or anything. In fact I am POSITIVE Grant would still knock him out!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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