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Thread: Tyson at welterweight.

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    Tyson was a great heavyweight, but he is a level below Evander, Lennox, Klitschkos...etc. He feasted in one of the sorriest bunch if heavyweights ever. It was great that he forced guys to start training for fear of fighting him out of shape, but he never beat a great fighter who was still in his prime. Holmes was well past his best when they fought, and Spinks was a light heavy who was intimidated and showed up for his paycheck. Any elite fighter he faced that had the mentality to beat him didn't just beat him, they knocked him out. I like Mike Tyson. I think he was a hard worker and exciting fighter to watch. I feel bad for the way he was taken advantage if throughout his life and I feel like he took being sentenced to prison for a crime he didn't commit like a man. The myth of prime Tyson, however, has reached ridiculous levels. He is above guys like Berbick, Page, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno... Etc., but not on the level of Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis and certainly not anywhere near Ali and Louis.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Tyson was a great heavyweight, but he is a level below Evander, Lennox, Klitschkos...etc. He feasted in one of the sorriest bunch if heavyweights ever. It was great that he forced guys to start training for fear of fighting him out of shape, but he never beat a great fighter who was still in his prime. Holmes was well past his best when they fought, and Spinks was a light heavy who was intimidated and showed up for his paycheck. Any elite fighter he faced that had the mentality to beat him didn't just beat him, they knocked him out. I like Mike Tyson. I think he was a hard worker and exciting fighter to watch. I feel bad for the way he was taken advantage if throughout his life and I feel like he took being sentenced to prison for a crime he didn't commit like a man. The myth of prime Tyson, however, has reached ridiculous levels. He is above guys like Berbick, Page, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno... Etc., but not on the level of Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis and certainly not anywhere near Ali and Louis.
    Same old crap spouted by anyone wanting to diminish Tysons acheivments.

    Mike fought and beat 3 separate, defending belt holders, the lineal champ and anihalated an all time great who went on to give Mercer his first loss and push Holyfield hard for 12 rounds 6 years after he retired!! In between that he beat the rest of the division and held the three titles together in 6 successful title defences. No other fighter in any other division has made 6 successive defences of all three titles!

    Who did "Evander, Lennox and Klitschko" beat that proved to be any better than any fighter Tyson beat?

    Holmes beats any of their opponents. In fact the Holmes that Tyson beat probably had enough left to beat Holyfield. He pushed him close 4 years after being flattened by Tyson.

    Spinks would probably beat Holyfield also.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Tyson was a great heavyweight, but he is a level below Evander, Lennox, Klitschkos...etc. He feasted in one of the sorriest bunch if heavyweights ever. It was great that he forced guys to start training for fear of fighting him out of shape, but he never beat a great fighter who was still in his prime. Holmes was well past his best when they fought, and Spinks was a light heavy who was intimidated and showed up for his paycheck. Any elite fighter he faced that had the mentality to beat him didn't just beat him, they knocked him out. I like Mike Tyson. I think he was a hard worker and exciting fighter to watch. I feel bad for the way he was taken advantage if throughout his life and I feel like he took being sentenced to prison for a crime he didn't commit like a man. The myth of prime Tyson, however, has reached ridiculous levels. He is above guys like Berbick, Page, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno... Etc., but not on the level of Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis and certainly not anywhere near Ali and Louis.
    I agree with Ali and Louis because Ali beat greater fighters and Louis showed consistency with 25 defences but Holyfield was too inconsistent, Lewis was vulnerable early and the Klit brothers a league below.

    Yes Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno, Spinks and Holmes (old) were not brilliant but the way he beat them demonstrated he was a great fighter.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Did u watch the Holmes vs Holyfield fight? I did. Holmes didn't push him hard at all, Evander is a counterpuncher and Holmes fought at a measured pace. It's not like it was a close or disputed decision. As for who Evander beat that was good or better than Tyson's sorry bunch of opponents: Riddick Bowe was light years better than anyone Tuson ever beat. Moorer was better than anyone Tyson beat. Tyson was a 15-1 favorite, and better than anyone Tyson beat. I agree that Evander was inconsistent, but that was due to him fighting EVERY tough fighter he could get in the ring with. He also has more historical accomplishments than Tyson. You can't name one elite fighter that Mike beat while that fighter was active and in his prime. Not one. Spinks was tiny and got two disputed decisions over an old Holmes. Holmes was out of the ring for years and was blown out by Tyson, partially because he walked in off the street with no tune ups unlike when he fought Mercer n Evander. If guys were scared of Mike, he was a terror. When guys fought back for more than 5 rounds, Mike broke mentally.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Did u watch the Holmes vs Holyfield fight? I did. Holmes didn't push him hard at all, Evander is a counterpuncher and Holmes fought at a measured pace. It's not like it was a close or disputed decision. As for who Evander beat that was good or better than Tyson's sorry bunch of opponents: Riddick Bowe was light years better than anyone Tuson ever beat. Moorer was better than anyone Tyson beat. Tyson was a 15-1 favorite, and better than anyone Tyson beat. I agree that Evander was inconsistent, but that was due to him fighting EVERY tough fighter he could get in the ring with. He also has more historical accomplishments than Tyson. You can't name one elite fighter that Mike beat while that fighter was active and in his prime. Not one. Spinks was tiny and got two disputed decisions over an old Holmes. Holmes was out of the ring for years and was blown out by Tyson, partially because he walked in off the street with no tune ups unlike when he fought Mercer n Evander. If guys were scared of Mike, he was a terror. When guys fought back for more than 5 rounds, Mike broke mentally.
    Moorer? Please! You normally write sensible posts, remember what Tua did to Micheal? Moorer would not last 30 seconds.

    Tyson beat plenty of fighter after 5 rounds, it was not that simple.

    Holyfield was lucky he did not face a prime Tyson otherwise he would have been obliterated.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    2 more points.
    1) Lennox cleaned out the division completely and beat Evander and Vitali, both of whom were better than anyone Tyson beat (thought Evander won the rematch with Lewis though). He also destroyed Ruddock (who Tyson struggled with), Morrison, Michael Grant, Golota, Shannon Briggs and Rahman (rematch). He won a war vs Mercer, who when in shape like he was for this fight was better than most of Tyson's opponents.
    2) pretty sure Hop defended all three belts more than 6 times. I hate doing this because I'm a fan of Mikes, but if u look at his record he doesn't have that many great wins or great competition. He just doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Did u watch the Holmes vs Holyfield fight? I did. Holmes didn't push him hard at all, Evander is a counterpuncher and Holmes fought at a measured pace. It's not like it was a close or disputed decision. As for who Evander beat that was good or better than Tyson's sorry bunch of opponents: Riddick Bowe was light years better than anyone Tuson ever beat. Moorer was better than anyone Tyson beat. Tyson was a 15-1 favorite, and better than anyone Tyson beat. I agree that Evander was inconsistent, but that was due to him fighting EVERY tough fighter he could get in the ring with. He also has more historical accomplishments than Tyson. You can't name one elite fighter that Mike beat while that fighter was active and in his prime. Not one. Spinks was tiny and got two disputed decisions over an old Holmes. Holmes was out of the ring for years and was blown out by Tyson, partially because he walked in off the street with no tune ups unlike when he fought Mercer n Evander. If guys were scared of Mike, he was a terror. When guys fought back for more than 5 rounds, Mike broke mentally.
    Moorer? Please! You normally write sensible posts, remember what Tua did to Micheal? Moorer would not last 30 seconds.

    Tyson beat plenty of fighter after 5 rounds, it was not that simple.

    Holyfield was lucky he did not face a prime Tyson otherwise he would have been obliterated.
    I would say that the Moorer that was destroyed by Tua was shot. Not the fighter Foreman n Evander beat. As for prime vs prime, Evander destroys any Tyson u throw in there. There r guys that just have someone's number. Evander had a "thing" for Mike and at any point would have beaten him. Horrible match up for Tyson. Now, while I rank Lewis higher historically, I will say that given Tyson's punch, speed and early aggression, I think he had a great chance of stopping the chinny Lewis prime vs prime.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Fair points about Holyfield @mikeeod but disagree if Moorer can get knocked out by Foreman he can get knocked out by Tyson, styles makes fights and Tyson is all wrong for Moorer.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    2 more points.
    1) Lennox cleaned out the division completely and beat Evander and Vitali, both of whom were better than anyone Tyson beat (thought Evander won the rematch with Lewis though). He also destroyed Ruddock (who Tyson struggled with), Morrison, Michael Grant, Golota, Shannon Briggs and Rahman (rematch). He won a war vs Mercer, who when in shape like he was for this fight was better than most of Tyson's opponents.
    2) pretty sure Hop defended all three belts more than 6 times. I hate doing this because I'm a fan of Mikes, but if u look at his record he doesn't have that many great wins or great competition. He just doesn't.
    Hopkins matched the 6 but lost to Taylor in the 7th!

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Also Tyson did struggle with Rudduck but Mike was not the same fighter, Mike was throwing single shots and no head movement. One of his worst performances but showed how great his chin was and it was an exciting fight.

    Lewis beat the left overs of Razor.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Fair points about Holyfield @mikeeod but disagree if Moorer can get knocked out by Foreman he can get knocked out by Tyson, styles makes fights and Tyson is all wrong for Moorer.
    Would actually agree with ur point on Tyson vs Moorer. I think that would've been a shoot out, but Mike has a good chin n great punch n Moorer had a shaky chin at best. Tyson by ko. My point was that Tua blew out a shot Moorer. Again, I hate getting into these types of discussions because I come off as bashing Tyson, and I really like and respect him. I'm embarrassed to say that when I competed my last song I had to hear was Welcome to the Terrordome by public enemy (Tyson's entry song). I also loved Tyson's old school, no socks or robe look when he went to the ring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Also Tyson did struggle with Rudduck but Mike was not the same fighter, Mike was throwing single shots and no head movement. One of his worst performances but showed how great his chin was and it was an exciting fight.

    Lewis beat the left overs of Razor.
    Would agree, but again, looking at styles, Lewis punched from a different angle and would likely have destroyed any version of Ruddock the same way. Razor was a one armed counter puncher who had a great chin but shaky stamina and technique. If I remember correctly Ruddock was a tennis player for most of his young life and came to boxing late.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Also Tyson did struggle with Rudduck but Mike was not the same fighter, Mike was throwing single shots and no head movement. One of his worst performances but showed how great his chin was and it was an exciting fight.

    Lewis beat the left overs of Razor.
    Would agree, but again, looking at styles, Lewis punched from a different angle and would likely have destroyed any version of Ruddock the same way. Razor was a one armed counter puncher who had a great chin but shaky stamina and technique. If I remember correctly Ruddock was a tennis player for most of his young life and came to boxing late.
    Yes you may be right. Tyson did bust him up bad though.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Tyson at welterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    2 more points.
    1) Lennox cleaned out the division completely and beat Evander and Vitali, both of whom were better than anyone Tyson beat (thought Evander won the rematch with Lewis though). He also destroyed Ruddock (who Tyson struggled with), Morrison, Michael Grant, Golota, Shannon Briggs and Rahman (rematch). He won a war vs Mercer, who when in shape like he was for this fight was better than most of Tyson's opponents.
    2) pretty sure Hop defended all three belts more than 6 times. I hate doing this because I'm a fan of Mikes, but if u look at his record he doesn't have that many great wins or great competition. He just doesn't.
    Lennox should have lost to Mercer. The same Mercer Holmes beat 6 years after getting wiped out by Tyson.....

    Mercer was better than most of Tysons opponents? One of his easiest wins gave Mercer his first loss!!!

    Ruddock was softened by Tyson.
    Last edited by ross; 09-06-2014 at 11:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross View Post
    We are being asked to imagine a scaled down version of Tyson. If he was at heavy, very fast, hard to hit, powerfull and takes a good shot from men 30lb heavier than him, the biggest hardest hitting men in boxing, you have to imagine he has these same attributes at welter where he is fighting men of equal weight and not of 3 or 4 weights above.

    Mike was a heavyweight smaller than the size of old heavyweights dealing with modern size heavies. There hasnt been a shorter world heavy weight champ.

    Its a hypothetical question but suddenly Mike would lose all his great attributes?

    Like I said, the size difference Mike was dealing with, as in weight, is like Pacquaio and mayweather fighting at super middle. Are their skills that much that they could dominate over that much bigger men?

    At welter he may be short but he was at heavy, only difference is his opponents are now the same weight and cant hold and lean in with their strength advantage.

    If you don't like imaginary hypothetical questions dont look.

    You simply aren 't thinking. So Tyson fought men 30lbs heavier. Okay, Tyson was 218-220 in shape. That means he was fighting people with around 13% body size advantage. PAC and Floyd have already moved up a greater percentage of body size. And they did that to fight guys far far far more skilled. Lennox Lewis might be able to beat any heavy ever. And he made Mike look useless. Now make LL 122lbs and put him in with Morales, what happens is Morales beats the dog snot out of him because the smaller guys are light years better. The big guys best skill is being big, all other skills follow off of that. Make Tyson 147 and he'd be 5 foot tall. He wouldn't be trying to get by a slow clumsy heavyweights reach, he'd be trying to get past the reach of a fast on balance skilled fighter. Tyson was what he was, a physical phenomenon taking advantage of oafs. All things equal the superior skill of smaller fighters verses bigger fighters if you make the bigger guy smaller the skills win out. A big mans advantage is size. You can't take size away and seriously think they still have the advantage, they just aren't as good. Watch a heavyweight fight, any heavyweight fight. And then watch a welterweight fight, any welterweight fight. The skills are not even comparable.

    I probably repeated myself about four times because it's late and the argument lacks reason.

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