Quality of Opposition

[mikeeod]

Some of the posts over the past few days have debated quality of opposition and how some fighters are hurt by perception of ducking or avoiding tough fighters, while others receive a pass. I think it would be interesting to try and look at a some of the top fighters and their quality of opposition (I will try to remain as neutral as possible). We are all biased, so I want to say up front that I am a HUGE fan of Hop, Evander and James Toney. I am a fan of Floyd Mayweather in the ring, but I can't stand him and the way he acts outside of it. Here is how I look at some of the best fighters of past couple of generations and who they fought:
Oscar de la Hoya:
Best wins: Quartey (undefeated, P4P ranked, top 3 at weight), Genaro Hernandez (undefeated, top titlist at the time at 130), Julio Ceasar Chavez (past his prime ATG), Fernando Vargas (Top ranked at 154, one loss post Tito), Rafael Ruelas (1 loss but top ranked titlist/fighter at 135 when they fought), Pernell Whitaker (past his prime ATG, P4P ranked top welterweight).
Respectable wins: John Molina, Jesse James Leija, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, David Kamau, Hector Camacho, Javier Castillejo, Wilfredo Vasquez, Oba Carr, Gatti, Mayorga.
Losses: Felix Trinidad (prime, undefeated P4P ranked HOF), BHOP (P4P, ATG, prime), Floyd (prime undefeated ATG), Shane Mosely (prime, undefeated HOF), Manny Paq (prime, ATG, smaller).
Missed fights: Kostya Tszyu, Winky Wright, Jose Luis Lopez

Roy Jones Jr.:
Best Wins: BHOP (1 loss, pre-prime), James Toney (prime undefeated, P4P #2, HOF), Antonio Tarver (1 loss, prime), John Ruiz (titlist, prime), Montell Griffin (undefeated, prime, top ranked challenger), Virgil Hill (post prime, 2 losses, multi. titlist)
Respectable wins: Clinton Woods, Thomas Tate, Merqui Sosa, Reggie Johnson, Julio Gonzalez,
Losses: Montell Griffin (DQ), Antonio Tarver (prime), Glenn Johnson, Joe Calzaghe (#2 P4P, ATG, both post prime), BHOP (ATG, both post prime), Danny Green (Roy past prime), Dennis Ledbedev (Roy past prime),
Missed fights: Gerald Mclellan, Benn, Eubank, Steve Collins, Dariusz Michalczewski, Frankie Liles, Michael Nunn, Graciano Rocchigiani, Vasily Jirov

Floyd Mayweather:
Best wins: Chico Corrales (undefeated, HOF, P4P, prime), Jose Luis Castillo (135 pound champ), Ricky Hatton (undefeated, P4P, prime), Oscar (HOF, post prime, top ranked 154), Canelo (undefeated, top ranked 154, prime), Miguel Cotto (Cotto post prime, titlist, HOF),
Respectable wins: Shane Mosely (Shane post prime, 5 losses), Gatti (HOF, 2nd prime), Baldomir, Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Maidana, Robert Guerrero,
Losses: NONE
Missed fights: Frietas, Casameyor, Steve Johnston, Kostya Tszyu, Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, Prime Shane, Prime Oscar, Winky Wright, Manny Paquaiou

BHOP:
Best Wins: Tito (#2 P4P, HOF, prime), Oscar (#8 P4P, HOF, post prime), Pavilik (#4 P4P, prime, lineal champ), Tarver (#6 P4P, prime, lineal champ), Winky Wright (#4 P4P, prime), Glenn Johnson (undefeated, prime), Jean Pascal (1 loss, lineal champ, post Hop prime), Tavoris Cloud (undefeated titlist, post Hop prime)
Respectable wins: Joppy, Holmes, Lipsey Jr., Mercado, Simon Brown, Howard Eastman, Robert Allen, Antwun Echols, John David Jackson
Losses: Clinton Mitchell (first fight, Hop green), Roy (undefeated, Hop green), Jermain Taylor (undefeated), Joe Calzaghe (#2 P4P, ATG, undefeated, Hop post prime), Chad Dawson (1 loss, lineal champ, P4P #
Missed fights: James Toney, Andre Ward, Roy rematch during prime

From looking at just these fighters, in my opinion (I am biased, but think I limited my bias), Oscar took on the toughest opposition but lost the most. Hop had the most wins vs. toughest opposition. Floyd is undefeated, but remains in third place (in my opinion) in quality of opposition because most of the HOF guys he fought were past their primes at the time of the fight. Roy fought the weakest competition in my opinion, and suffered the worst blow outs. Roy also seems to have missed the most big fights, where with Oscar and Hop I really had to stretch the envelope to get names on those lists for them.

[Ron Swanson]

Seriously depends on how you look at it. You can easily come up with more names for Hop in missed if you use the bias against him you used against Floyd. I mean you list Winky as missed even though he and Floyd were never in the same division. By that logic you could consider Hop started at LHW and list every decent LHW that came along, he'll it would be fair for you to list cruisers as well by same logic. So of course you could put the decent SMWs as well. I liked your post but it exemplifies that there is no escaping how we feel about fighters.

[Ron Swanson]

I could expand on this. In missed fights for Floyd you have Prime X and Prime Y. But you don't list prime Calzaghe for Hopkins even though that fight was agreed in Calzaghes prime and Hop balked. Should I continue?

[Ron Swanson]

To continue many of the missed fights on Roys list apply to Hop as well if you use the same criteria you use to make Floyd's missed fights. Benn, Gman etcetera

[mikeeod]

Seriously depends on how you look at it. You can easily come up with more names for Hop in missed if you use the bias against him you used against Floyd. I mean you list Winky as missed even though he and Floyd were never in the same division. By that logic you could consider Hop started at LHW and list every decent LHW that came along, he'll it would be fair for you to list cruisers as well by same logic. So of course you could put the decent SMWs as well. I liked your post but it exemplifies that there is no escaping how we feel about fighters.

Well, u kind of have a point, but Floyd was considering a fight with Winky at one point, so that is why I included his name. I don't think Floyd ducked him, he just wasn't worth the risk. Smart move on Floyd's part, even though I think he wins that fight.

[mikeeod]

I could expand on this. In missed fights for Floyd you have Prime X and Prime Y. But you don't list prime Calzaghe for Hopkins even though that fight was agreed in Calzaghes prime and Hop balked. Should I continue?

Sure, continue. Hop fought Joe when Hop was past his best and Joe was in his prime, coming off of his biggest wins over Lacy and Kessler. Your point doesn't make much sense.

[mikeeod]

To continue many of the missed fights on Roys list apply to Hop as well if you use the same criteria you use to make Floyd's missed fights. Benn, Gman etcetera

Really? Roy was at 168 with all of those guys and they were actively calling him out. EVERYONE avoided hop. That post shows ur lack if depth in the sport. Hop was with Butch Lewis n frozen out of big fights for YEARS. It is part of the reason he has his paranoia. U have made two really bad posts with flawed logic. Try harder.

[Beanflicker]

Really? Roy was at 168 with all of those guys and they were actively calling him out.

I don't know if all of those guys were calling him out, but I do know that there are legit reasons why those fights never happened that doesn't necessarily fall into Roy's lap.

Just one example: Nigel Benn. It's a fact that Nigel wanted the fight and did call out Jones... but it's also a fact that Don King, who promoted Nigel at the time, refused to make the fight with Roy unless Roy agreed to give Don a three-fight option on him. Roy didn't want to get mixed up with Don King and refused that stipulation.

In a situation like that, I think its unfair to dog Roy for that fight not happening.

[Beanflicker]

I think the main problem with any discussion on quality of opposition is that very few people have original opinions based on watching boxing and doing research themselves. It's like with pretty much every topic in life: everyone is scared to death of looking ignorant so they just familiarize themselves with the "consensus" and "expert" opinions and perpetuate that until it becomes fact etched in stone.
Just like with public consensus on just about any topic, you're bound to find a ton of bullshit masquerading as fact.

People know how to quantify a Roberto Duran, a Ray Leonard, a Pacquiao, ect, but they have no idea how to quantify a guy like Reggie Johnson, who was an incredible fighter who would have chased some bonafide HOFers out of the ring, but because there is no consensus on him and people are generally too lazy to watch his fights, very few here would know how impressive it is to pitch a complete shutout against him.

Reggie who? Who'd he beat? Is he in the HOF?

[La Cucaracha]

Seriously depends on how you look at it. You can easily come up with more names for Hop in missed if you use the bias against him you used against Floyd. I mean you list Winky as missed even though he and Floyd were never in the same division. By that logic you could consider Hop started at LHW and list every decent LHW that came along, he'll it would be fair for you to list cruisers as well by same logic. So of course you could put the decent SMWs as well. I liked your post but it exemplifies that there is no escaping how we feel about fighters.

In regards to the Wright fight, everything had been agreed to, Wright had just beaten Trinidad and the fight was going to be at 154 if I remember correctly, then Floyd's team wanted more money at the last minute essentially pricing themselves out of the fight. That would count as a miss

[La Cucaracha]

I think the main problem with any discussion on quality of opposition is that very few people have original opinions based on watching boxing and doing research themselves. It's like with pretty much every topic in life: everyone is scared to death of looking ignorant so they just familiarize themselves with the "consensus" and "expert" opinions and perpetuate that until it becomes fact etched in stone.
Just like with public consensus on just about any topic, you're bound to find a ton of bullshit masquerading as fact.

People know how to quantify a Roberto Duran, a Ray Leonard, a Pacquiao, ect, but they have no idea how to quantify a guy like Reggie Johnson, who was an incredible fighter who would have chased some bonafide HOFers out of the ring, but because there is no consensus on him and people are generally too lazy to watch his fights, very few here would know how impressive it is to pitch a complete shutout against him.

Reggie who? Who'd he beat? Is he in the HOF?

Johnson was excellent take out his first loss early in his career and the Jones loss and you could argue he went undefeated

[Spicoli]

Good stuff bud. I def think Oscar faced the more relevant or "better" opponents. Though personally as big a Hopkins fan as I am the Oscar fight always struck me as more of a "business arrangement" before hand more than a meaningful fight. That said people can save all of that he threw the fight bs...he was overmatched and had his ears boxed by Sturm prior and shouldn't have been wearing a trinket in the first place, that was the writing on the wall. Also absolutely hated Hopkins demolishing Simon Brown and no clue how-why that was made. Hated that fight and Brown other than name had zero business being in there. I'd def have Malinga and Thorton as respectable wins for Jones. Thought Thorton had beat Eubanks prior but yeh, he was at the end. Might bump Gonzalez and put Harding instead. Really think he was one of the first guys to show just ever so minor holes in Jones and the first time I thought Jones looked a little perplexed.

[mikeeod]

I think the main problem with any discussion on quality of opposition is that very few people have original opinions based on watching boxing and doing research themselves. It's like with pretty much every topic in life: everyone is scared to death of looking ignorant so they just familiarize themselves with the "consensus" and "expert" opinions and perpetuate that until it becomes fact etched in stone.
Just like with public consensus on just about any topic, you're bound to find a ton of bullshit masquerading as fact.

People know how to quantify a Roberto Duran, a Ray Leonard, a Pacquiao, ect, but they have no idea how to quantify a guy like Reggie Johnson, who was an incredible fighter who would have chased some bonafide HOFers out of the ring, but because there is no consensus on him and people are generally too lazy to watch his fights, very few here would know how impressive it is to pitch a complete shutout against him.

Reggie who? Who'd he beat? Is he in the HOF?

I can quantify Johnson, I saw many of his fights. He was a very good middleweight. Southpaw, solid boxing skills, good athleticism. He gave Toney a great fight at 160, scoring a knockdown but losing a controversial split decision. All of that being said, he wasn't at his best at 175 n past his prime when Roy beat him. That said, Roy's one-two knockdown in that fight was breath taking. Good win, but not one of his top wins in my opinion.

[mikeeod]

Really? Roy was at 168 with all of those guys and they were actively calling him out.

I don't know if all of those guys were calling him out, but I do know that there are legit reasons why those fights never happened that doesn't necessarily fall into Roy's lap.

Just one example: Nigel Benn. It's a fact that Nigel wanted the fight and did call out Jones... but it's also a fact that Don King, who promoted Nigel at the time, refused to make the fight with Roy unless Roy agreed to give Don a three-fight option on him. Roy didn't want to get mixed up with Don King and refused that stipulation.

In a situation like that, I think its unfair to dog Roy for that fight not happening.

I think that when you look at all the big fights that could've been made and weren't, it's tough to not be honest and dog Roy. Oscar has the same issues Roy did, and he managed to make pretty much every big fight available. The Arum-King war didn't stop his fight vs Tito. Roy was the man and could have easily made some big fights. He signed to fight Buster Douglas n then backed out. Darius was his biggest threat n lineal champ n Roy didn't make that one. Eubank, Benn n Collins were all battling for supremacy of the division they shared n Roy didn't fight any of them. He fought the phenom Vinny Paz. The guy that lucked into a title at light weight n light middle. Antoine Byrd? Bryant Brannon? Tony Thornton? C'mon. The Toney win was HUGE. And then Roy stopped chasing the big fights n feasted on guys who had little to no hope. If u r honest n unbiased u have to admit that Roy has no one to blame for missing those fights except himself.

[mikeeod]

Good stuff bud. I def think Oscar faced the more relevant or "better" opponents. Though personally as big a Hopkins fan as I am the Oscar fight always struck me as more of a "business arrangement" before hand more than a meaningful fight. That said people can save all of that he threw the fight bs...he was overmatched and had his ears boxed by Sturm prior and shouldn't have been wearing a trinket in the first place, that was the writing on the wall. Also absolutely hated Hopkins demolishing Simon Brown and no clue how-why that was made. Hated that fight and Brown other than name had zero business being in there. I'd def have Malinga and Thorton as respectable wins for Jones. Thought Thorton had beat Eubanks prior but yeh, he was at the end. Might bump Gonzalez and put Harding instead. Really think he was one of the first guys to show just ever so minor holes in Jones and the first time I thought Jones looked a little perplexed.

Good points, and I agree on the Simon Brown fight. Great point on Harding showcasing a style that would give Roy problems. Harding fought "in his envelope", and made Roy work for that win. It's why I don't buy into everyone saying Roy was past his prime and that is why Tarver gave him a hard fight. A tall, strong southpaw with a good jab and solid boxing skills would always bother Roy. Clever boxers in General gave him problems, as evidenced in the first Griffin fight. It's why I always thought Nunn and Frankie Liles would've given Roy problems. Roy's best performances were against guys who had slow feet, like Toney, or guys who were limited and came straight at him like Thomas Tate and Ruiz. That is why Roy frustrated me so much, I think Darius would've been an easy style match up for him, yet he never made the fight.