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Thread: If Floyd never fights Manny...

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  1. #31
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    I don't think Floyd will get his just due until long after he retires because he's a hard guy to talk about objectively. Which is understandable, because he is a clear douche bag, but I never understood how a boxing fan can't appreciate Floyd the boxer, because like him or hate him he's the kind of athlete that comes to a sport once every 25-50 years, if ever.

    Haters will always find excuse after excuse as to why a guy who's gone 18 years and counting without a loss (16 of those fought at a world championship level) is a bum, a fraud, doesn't deserve to be a boxing great, ect. It really is just silly to hear the stuff people come up with. I think future generations of boxing fans will have more appreciation, because all the drama will be gone and they'll just have the actual art to judge him on. And if you're talking the art of boxing, and you know the art of boxing, Floyd Mayweather is at least top 5 all time and has a serious case for #1.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthless rocco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    @ruthless rocco - Are you advocating that Floyd, or any fighter for that matter, shouldn't take challenges to preserve their brand? This is one of the more remarkable posts I've seen from you. You genuinely enjoy the business of boxing more than the sport of boxing. You cheer Floyd's savvy business decisions to the detriment of making challenging fights.

    Take your train of thought of apply it to all fighters. No one would fight anyone they didn't have to fight. I'm just curious - did you cheer when Peter Quillin vacated his title instead of fighting Korobov?
    You're missing the point. Floyd isn't most boxers. He's unique. He's the highest level of the sport, both the athleticism and the business ends. There is no other fighter that can operate the way he does. It's not about applying this train of thought to all other fighters. I'm trying to explain why Floyd won't and doesn't need to fight GGG. He is better and smarter than other fighters. Why is that such a problem for you?
    There are two arguments here. One argument is comparing Armstrong etc. to Mayweather. You and I have done that before. No need to do it again. We can agree to disagree.

    The other argument is about Floyd Mayweather's opponents.

    Please answer the questions below:

    "Are you advocating that Floyd shouldn't take challenging fights? If so, why?" - these were already asked but not answered.

    I have two more questions for you too.

    Who would be the toughest fights for Floyd right now?

    Who do you want to see Floyd face?

  3. #33
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    @ruthless rocco - with all due respect, you're being a little harsh, my friend. I frankly disagree with you. Duran started his career at 130 and fought legitimately up to 168. Duran never claimed to be the best ever either. Floyd's line of clothing is TBE. Enough said. For boxing fans to want him to move up to 160 to fight the most-feared fighter at 160 is not too much to ask at all, especially when he claims he is the best ever and fans have to pay $75 to watch him fight. It actually is an entirely reasonable request.

    Second, it's not as far as off as you make it out to be. GGG weighed in at 165 on his thirty day weigh in for his next fight. He has offered to come down to 154 or a catch weight between 154 and 160 for a fight with Floyd. Floyd is the current champion in the junior middleweight division, only one division below.

    Ortiz weighed in the night of at 164 for his fight against Floyd. Canelo weighed in the night of at 165. They rumble at 157 or 160 and you would probably see a five pound difference in the night of weight of GGG compared with Ortiz or Canelo.
    I think the difference is that Duran ate his way up to those higher weights and fought there out of necessity when he got older.

    In reality, Floyd is a small WW. And because I know people will disagree with that and quote heights and weights to me, let me explain: for most people this is obvious, but for those who might not know weight cutting has come a long way, and a guy who weighs 147 at the weigh in does not walk around at 147 and doesn't not fight at 147. A guy who fights at 147 will usually weigh 157 or more on fight day.

    For reference, when Mayweather fought Sharmba Mitchell, Floyd was 147 at the weigh in and 148 on fight day. In contrast, Mitchell was 145 at the weigh in and 155 on fight night. Against Baldomir, Floyd was 146 weigh in, 149 fight night. Baldomir was 147 weigh in, 162 fight night. In the first Maidana fight, Mayweather was 146 weigh in and 148 on fight night. Maidana was 146 1/2 at weigh in and 165 on fight night. That's a nearly 20lb differential. Floyd's fight time weight of 146-151 is more comparable to the fight time weight of a junior WW or even a large LW.

    So if Floyd is being outweighed by so much at WW, why do we expect him to go to 160 and fight an absolute killer, at 38 years old no less. A guy who's never entered a ring weighing more than 151lbs doesn't belong in a weigh class with guys who weigh in at 160 and come to the ring at 170 plus.

    That aside, I don't even see why people feel the need for him to move up. It's not like he's cleared the division... the WW division is probably the hottest in boxing right now. There are a lot of young guys I'd love to see him fight. In fact, I'll go on record and say that I think Shawn Porter would beat the shit out of Floyd.
    Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

    By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

    Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    The obscene amount of money Floyd is being paid he should fight GGG.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    I don't think Floyd will get his just due until long after he retires because he's a hard guy to talk about objectively. Which is understandable, because he is a clear douche bag, but I never understood how a boxing fan can't appreciate Floyd the boxer, because like him or hate him he's the kind of athlete that comes to a sport once every 25-50 years, if ever.

    Haters will always find excuse after excuse as to why a guy who's gone 18 years and counting without a loss (16 of those fought at a world championship level) is a bum, a fraud, doesn't deserve to be a boxing great, ect. It really is just silly to hear the stuff people come up with. I think future generations of boxing fans will have more appreciation, because all the drama will be gone and they'll just have the actual art to judge him on. And if you're talking the art of boxing, and you know the art of boxing, Floyd Mayweather is at least top 5 all time and has a serious case for #1.
    Seriously? He's the top boxer in the world and he's making $32 million per fight. How is he not getting his just due right now? He hasn't even retired and people are putting him in their top 50 of all-time. You say he is the best of all time. If he isn't getting his just due, I'm not sure what just due is frankly.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    There are two arguments here. One argument is comparing Armstrong etc. to Mayweather. You and I have done that before. No need to do it again. We can agree to disagree.

    The other argument is about Floyd Mayweather's opponents.

    Please answer the questions below:

    "Are you advocating that Floyd shouldn't take challenging fights? If so, why?" - these were already asked but not answered.

    I have two more questions for you too.

    Who would be the toughest fights for Floyd right now?

    Who do you want to see Floyd face?
    I am not advocating that Floyd not take challenging fights. I never said anything resembling that. --But many of you seem to think that the only tough fights for Floyd would be moving up in weight and taking on opponents that are naturally much bigger and heavier than him. Guys that are going to finish their careers at light heavy or cruiser weight. This is ridiculous! I'm trying to explain that Floyd should only be expected to fight opponents within his natural weight range. He's 38 years old, rich, healthy and in control of his career. Why would he throw it all away trying to get respect from douche bags that aren't ever going to respect him and only want to see him lose?!

    The toughest fights for Floyd within his natural weight range - Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia Miguel Cotto, Erislandy Lara

    I'd love to Floyd fight Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia, Miguel Cotto, Erislandy Lara, Chris Algieri, Saul Alvarez


    The problem here is that the view from the top is a lot different from the view from the bottom or more importantly in this case the view from the arm chair. Floyd Mayweather is at the top of the sport of boxing, in every sense. He knows how the sport works. He's seen all the shit on his way up and now that he's on top he knows he's not going back down to the bottom. He's seen his own family flushed their lives down the toilet. Now he's in complete control of his career. No other boxer has had this before. He bought out his contract and never looked back. He's a gifted genius, a brilliant business man who has worked very hard to get to the pinnacle of a sport. He's in fact reached beyond the top. He's created a new level in boxing. You all hate him for it. You say it's not fair. It's not deserved. In a sport where you can die in the ring, a sport that is rife with corruption, where your career, health and life are in other people's hands... What part of boxing is fair? Floyd has gone beyond that. He's the ultimate success story in a sport where no one leaves healthy, happy and wealthy. This make him the best ever and you hate him for it. You'd rather see him KO'd with brain damage and broke then leave a winner.

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    I don't think Floyd will get his just due until long after he retires because he's a hard guy to talk about objectively. Which is understandable, because he is a clear douche bag, but I never understood how a boxing fan can't appreciate Floyd the boxer, because like him or hate him he's the kind of athlete that comes to a sport once every 25-50 years, if ever.

    Haters will always find excuse after excuse as to why a guy who's gone 18 years and counting without a loss (16 of those fought at a world championship level) is a bum, a fraud, doesn't deserve to be a boxing great, ect. It really is just silly to hear the stuff people come up with. I think future generations of boxing fans will have more appreciation, because all the drama will be gone and they'll just have the actual art to judge him on. And if you're talking the art of boxing, and you know the art of boxing, Floyd Mayweather is at least top 5 all time and has a serious case for #1.
    Seriously? He's the top boxer in the world and he's making $32 million per fight. How is he not getting his just due right now? He hasn't even retired and people are putting him in their top 50 of all-time. You say he is the best of all time. If he isn't getting his just due, I'm not sure what just due is frankly.
    My thoughts exactly. I give him his just due, as do most fans. The issue is when the Floyd lovers get hysterical and say he's the greatest ever and just because he didn't fight that great of competition it wasn't his fault and he gets paid a lot so that makes him great and if you don't think he's the greatest then you are a hater and blah, blah, blah. Rocco is a prime example. Lays out a post touting Floyd as the greatest fighter and backs his statement up with business and finance numbers. What a dipshit.

    Floyd's an ATG fighter. Floyd has beaten solid competition and hasn't ducked anyone. That being said, Floyd hasn't beaten the competition or faced the competition that Pea, Oscar, Mosely, Tito, Hop... Etc., faced. I don't consider Floyd's competition as bad as Roy Jones Jr.'s, but it isn't on the level of those previously mentioned. For me to consider him TBE, he would've had to beat the Kostyas, Prime Shane, Paul Williams, Prime Mannys...etc., of the world. Before you hungers piss yourself, especially you Rocco, I know Floyd didn't duck them and I think Floyd would've beaten them. I also thought Roy would beat Tarver and Tyson would beat Douglas so Floyd doesn't get credit. From me for what might have been.

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

    By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

    Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.
    I'd love to see Floyd fight GGG. I'd love to see Floyd fight Wlad. I'd love to see Floyd try to jump over the Grand Canyon on a BMX.

    I just don't think he should be expected to do any of those things. You talk about it like he needs the GGG fight for his legacy, or he owes it to the fans. He really doesn't.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Seriously? He's the top boxer in the world and he's making $32 million per fight. How is he not getting his just due right now? He hasn't even retired and people are putting him in their top 50 of all-time. You say he is the best of all time. If he isn't getting his just due, I'm not sure what just due is frankly.
    You know exactly what I mean when I say that. I'm not talking about financial, I'm talking about legacy and credibility. A day doesn't pass on this forum and others where someone isn't making a thread about how Floyd is a coward, a fraud, ect. How his competition has been shit, how everyone was hand picked and fought at the right time, how he pays off refs and judges, whatever.

    His craft and accomplishments do not get nearly the credit they deserve, and probably won't until long after he's gone. Guys like me who think he belongs at least in the top 10 of all time are a small minority. There's still a large portion of boxing fans who believe Pac will go down as the greater fighter.

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I give him his just due, as do most fans. The issue is when the Floyd lovers get hysterical and say he's the greatest ever and just because he didn't fight that great of competition it wasn't his fault and he gets paid a lot so that makes him great and if you don't think he's the greatest then you are a hater and blah, blah, blah. Rocco is a prime example. Lays out a post touting Floyd as the greatest fighter and backs his statement up with business and finance numbers. What a dipshit.

    Floyd's an ATG fighter. Floyd has beaten solid competition and hasn't ducked anyone. That being said, Floyd hasn't beaten the competition or faced the competition that Pea, Oscar, Mosely, Tito, Hop... Etc., faced. I don't consider Floyd's competition as bad as Roy Jones Jr.'s, but it isn't on the level of those previously mentioned. For me to consider him TBE, he would've had to beat the Kostyas, Prime Shane, Paul Williams, Prime Mannys...etc., of the world. Before you hungers piss yourself, especially you Rocco, I know Floyd didn't duck them and I think Floyd would've beaten them. I also thought Roy would beat Tarver and Tyson would beat Douglas so Floyd doesn't get credit. From me for what might have been.
    Floyd obviously knows a bit more about being a professional prize fighter than you. The fact that you think boxing is just about fights shows that you're naive.

    Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

  11. #41
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    Why wouldn't we feel the need for him to move up? He's best lineal champion at 147 and 154. As a fan of boxing, wouldn't you want to see if he can become the lineal champion at 160 too? Why the heck not? Can any boxing fan say with a straight face that they wouldn't want to see Floyd face GGG or didn't want to see him face Sergio Martinez?

    By the way, no one needs to move up. I don't think GGG needs to move up to 168 to face Froch or Ward. He makes 160 comfortably. But, as a boxing fan, don't we want him to, especially if he clears out the middleweight division first? In fact, once he clears out the division, wouldn't it more fun as a boxing fan if he moved up to challenge himself?

    Also, Floyd doesn't need to fight anyone. He's at the top of the sport and the networks and athletic commissions let him do what they want because he brings in so much money. I 100% understand from a business perspective why he wouldn't take challenges. Why would Floyd face GGG when he can he face Maidana? GGG is a much harder fight and the money now might not be that different. But show me a boxing fan that wouldn't prefer to see him face GGG.
    I'd love to see Floyd fight GGG. I'd love to see Floyd fight Wlad. I'd love to see Floyd try to jump over the Grand Canyon on a BMX.

    I just don't think he should be expected to do any of those things. You talk about it like he needs the GGG fight for his legacy, or he owes it to the fans. He really doesn't.
    Did you even read my post? I explicitly said at least twice that Floyd didn't need to do anything. He's already made millions of dollars and been on top of the hill for a while. I said as a boxing fan, I'd like to see Floyd fight GGG because it appears on paper to be a challenging, competitive fight and it would present Floyd with the chance to be the lineal middleweight champion, something he hasn't accomplished yet.

    To your point about legacy, adding a lineal middleweight belt to his legacy clearly would improve his legacy. Conversely, losing to the middleweight champion clearly would not lessen it.

    I disagree with you though--I wouldn't like to see Floyd face Wlad. That's a farcical fight that in no way shape or form could be competitive. On the other hand, I view Floyd-Sergio Martinez (of two years ago), Floyd-GGG now as competitive fights, where, frankly, I bet many might pick Floyd.

    Who would you pick in a fight between Floyd and GGG?

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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

    Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

    @ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod
    Last edited by ruthless rocco; 10-08-2014 at 11:16 PM.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthless rocco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rantcatrat View Post
    There are two arguments here. One argument is comparing Armstrong etc. to Mayweather. You and I have done that before. No need to do it again. We can agree to disagree.

    The other argument is about Floyd Mayweather's opponents.

    Please answer the questions below:

    "Are you advocating that Floyd shouldn't take challenging fights? If so, why?" - these were already asked but not answered.

    I have two more questions for you too.

    Who would be the toughest fights for Floyd right now?

    Who do you want to see Floyd face?
    I am not advocating that Floyd not take challenging fights. I never said anything resembling that. --But many of you seem to think that the only tough fights for Floyd would be moving up in weight and taking on opponents that are naturally much bigger and heavier than him. Guys that are going to finish their careers at light heavy or cruiser weight. This is ridiculous! I'm trying to explain that Floyd should only be expected to fight opponents within his natural weight range. He's 38 years old, rich, healthy and in control of his career. Why would he throw it all away trying to get respect from douche bags that aren't ever going to respect him and only want to see him lose?!

    The toughest fights for Floyd within his natural weight range - Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia Miguel Cotto, Erislandy Lara

    I'd love to Floyd fight Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia, Miguel Cotto, Erislandy Lara, Chris Algieri, Saul Alvarez

    The problem here is that the view from the top is a lot different from the view from the bottom or more importantly in this case the view from the arm chair. Floyd Mayweather is at the top of the sport of boxing, in every sense. He knows how the sport works. He's seen all the shit on his way up and now that he's on top he knows he's not going back down to the bottom. He's seen his own family flushed their lives down the toilet. Now he's in complete control of his career. No other boxer has had this before. He bought out his contract and never looked back. He's a gifted genius, a brilliant business man who has worked very hard to get to the pinnacle of a sport. He's in fact reached beyond the top. He's created a new level in boxing. You all hate him for it. You say it's not fair. It's not deserved. In a sport where you can die in the ring, a sport that is rife with corruption, where your career, health and life are in other people's hands... What part of boxing is fair? Floyd has gone beyond that. He's the ultimate success story in a sport where no one leaves healthy, happy and wealthy. This make him the best ever and you hate him for it. You'd rather see him KO'd with brain damage and broke then leave a winner.
    Why did you caveat the question? I'll ask it again. Who are Floyd's toughest fights within a weight class (from 160-140)?

    To your suggested opponents, are you really excited about those fights? Why? He's already faced Miguel Cotto. Why do we want to see that again? Same goes for Canelo. Shawn Porter is coming off a loss against Kell Brook. I'm not sure why Floyd Mayweather would have any problem with him. Danny Garcia is fighting at the weight class below him and didn't look good in his last real fight against Herrera. Until he has a fight or two at 147 against solid opposition, why would that be a tough fight for Floyd? It would the exceptional case for Floyd to be challenged by a guy coming up in weight. Lara is coming off a loss against Canelo, whom Floyd beat. It's not a horrible idea but not a great one. Why is that a good fight to you?

    For the sake of argument, although you didn't mention them, Demetrius Andrade (at 154) and Keith Thurman (at 147) aren't bad fights for Floyd at his weight class. Thurman hasn't done much at 147 yet but the pickings are slim for Floyd at that weight class. Floyd has cleaned it out for the most part.

    Other than the two I mentioned, none of the fights you suggested seem like fights where Floyd would be challenged and certainly none of them would be as challenging as a fight with GGG. Moreover, what can Floyd show in those fights that he hasn't already shown before? What's new about them? Why are they captivating?

  14. #44
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    Default Re: If Floyd never fights Manny...

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthless rocco View Post
    How about you naysayers answer one of my questions!!!!!

    Who has accomplished more in the sport of boxing than Floyd?

    @ fan johnny @Rantcatrat @mikeeod
    What does it prove? It's an entirely different point and off topic.

    Why do you consider me a naysayer? Have I ever said Floyd Mayweather isn't a great? Did I ever say he wasn't a great boxer? Whether Floyd makes more money than anyone in boxing's history though isn't important to me. The only difference between you and I is that I could care less about his business decisions whereas you drool over his money and admire his brand. I want to see good fights. I want to see challenging fights. Fights that are close on paper. I'm a boxing fan.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    The obscene amount of money Floyd is being paid he should fight GGG.
    Ward should fight wilder then.

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