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Thread: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

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    Default Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    i was challenged to make a thread about this to state my case as to why floyd has had a greater career than bhop. i will mainly talk about opposition and how they fared in these fights.

    bhop:
    jones: bhop was green and jones had a broken hand. jones easily won this fight. no controversy. no shame in losing this fight though because most people arent going to beat jones.
    johnson: this was before johnson was really the road warrior that we all got to know him as. he handed johnson his first loss and only stoppage loss (although by cuts) in his career until his most recent fight. good win.
    trinidad: trinidad moved up in weight for this fight and was a heavy favorite for some reason. he had just recently gotten a gift decision against de la hoya. he was a good fighter but very one dimensional. bad style for bhop. good win but i wouldnt say great because of the weight factor.
    de la hoya: i couldnt believe this fight was happening because de la hoya was nowhere near the size of bhop. i thought that it would be a complete blowout and assumed this fight happened just for money sake. de la hoya actually did a lot better than i expected but bhop was too big and eventually landed a good shot. not a great win because of the size difference. and remember that de la hoya had just gotten a gift against sturm right before this fight.
    taylor: taylor came up through the rankings quickly. i never thought he was that great but i believe he had the style to beat bhop because of his reach and jab. i thought that taylor won the first fight and bhop won the second. pretty good win.
    tarver: by this time, i think that most people thought that bhop was done (including me) because he just had back to back losses to taylor and was 40 years old. this win was impressive but i think its a bit blown out of proportion because no one was expecting him to come out like the bhop of old and win. solid win either way.
    calzaghe: not much to say about this fight. could have gone either way but he did pretty well. bhop didnt necessarily impress but didnt really hurt his case either.
    pavlik: pavlik became the MW champ and was thought to be too much for bhop. again, i think that this win is a little blown out of proportion because of bhops age and what everybody expected to happen in the fight. good win but again, a bit blown out of proportion.
    dawson: we will refrain from talking about the first fight. the second fight was all dawson. wrong style for bhop. he was too quick and had too good of a jab.
    kovalev: maybe age had to do with it although i dont think any version of bhop would have won this fight. kovalev was too big and too disciplined.

    those are his 10 best/noticable opponents i would say. he came up short against a few of them which is fine. i dont expect everybody to go undefeated. but honestly, who is his best win? i would say that tarver and pavlik are probably his most impressive wins. both good fighters who he easily beat. you could argue tito but again, the weight issue makes me less impressed although its still a good win and impressive. so his best wins arent really anything great. like i said before, his longevity at the top makes his legacy more than his actual resume or his greatness in the ring.

    floyd:
    hernandez: not really a close fight. floyds first title win. he did it while he was still young and did it impressively against a good veteran. good win.
    corrales: was a favorite to beat floyd and was thought to be very dangerous. floyd absolutely destroyed corrales. great win.
    castillo: disputed first win but decisive second win. castillo was a good, tough fighter who was an experienced fighter. i know the excuse in the first fight was that his hands were bad but whatever. good win in the second fight.
    judah: bad style match up for floyd but he adapted after the first 4 rounds and took over the fight pretty easily. pretty good win.
    de la hoya: although he may have been past his best, the fight was at 154 which was a disadvantage to floyd. personally, i thought that de la hoya was still good at this time and thought that he would win convincingly. i was impressed at this win at least. good win.
    hatton: undefeated and was a solid fighter. i was never super impressed by hatton but he was a good fighter either way. and people talk about hatton having to move up in weight but floyd started at a smaller weight and i guarantee that floyd walked around lighter than hatton did (obviously). very good win.
    marquez: there is controversy to this win with the whole weight issue. i agree that floyd definitely had the weight advantage. tainted win but still alright.
    mosley: mosley was old but still decent. just came off a destruction win against margo. this is also the same mosley that roach wouldnt allow pac near even though mosley constantly asked for the fight at this time. other than round 2, floyd completely embarrassed mosley and pretty much ended his career.
    cotto: bad style match up for floyd i believe. one of his tougher fights but still convincingly won. cotto has shown that he still has it so i wouldnt say that cotto was way past his best or anything. very good win.
    canelo: up and coming 154 pounder. floyd went up and weight and shut him out. the fight wasnt close. good win.

    it was harder picking floyds top 10. he had some other fighters that could have been in there. his best wins are probably castillo, de la hoya, and cotto. he also beat all of those fighters (castillo can be debated though).

    so if you look at both of their top 10 wins, you may be able to say that bhop has a better resume (although i would disagree) but he lost to many of his best opponents while floyd beat them all and beat most of them convincingly. floyd is hands down the greater fighter. he will go down as one of the greatest fighters ever known for his skills while bhop will go down as an anamoly who could hold up at an advanced age unlike anybody that the sports world has ever seen.

    so the answer is that floyd is definitely better while bhop has a very impressive accomplishment with his longevity.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    It's just silly that there are people who would even claim Bhop was the better fighter. It's just ridiculous

    I understand people having boxers they love and hate, and I certainly understand people hating Floyd, but it's a shame so many people let their hatred ruin their good judgement.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    It's just silly that there are people who would even claim Bhop was the better fighter. It's just ridiculous

    I understand people having boxers they love and hate, and I certainly understand people hating Floyd, but it's a shame so many people let their hatred ruin their good judgement.
    Agree but in my opinion he has fought the better fighters. I dont think i can have Hopkins as an all time great. Terrific fighter and wins over Trinidad and Pavlik were the peaks of his career but not sure if that earns you an ATG spot. Floyd almost certainly will go down as an ATG

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe View Post
    I dont think i can have Hopkins as an all time great.
    We're going to have to part company on that one, he spent about 10 years as the #1 middleweight in the world, was one of the most intelligent boxers to ever step in the ring, world class skills and had longevity and consistency like nobody else in the history of the sport.

    If Bhop isn't an ATG on your list, I think your criteria is a little too selective.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Let me make this perfectly fucking clear. I dont hate Floyd. I dont hate Hopkins. My personal feelings for these two does not even enter the equation. If people want to say that Bernard is just as good a boxer so what. Criticizing them for saying so does not provide evidence to the contrary. Its simply a statement.

    These child like responses that put all who disagree with Floyd robots as some kind of "hater" is both freakin hilarious, myopic and plain stupid. Its not dialogue its dogma.

    Floyd took very little risks.
    Hop took nothing but risks
    Floyd fought guys that had no chance to beat him
    Hop fought guys that could all beat him
    Floyd never unified one division
    Hop unified middle and double dipped 175 at close to 50
    Floyd has never fought outside Vegas
    Hop has fought all over the place
    Floyd had a boyfriend ref in Cortez
    Hop never had a ref in his pocket
    Floyd has never jumped two weight classes to take on the man of a division
    Hop has
    Floyd has never dropped back down to fight a champion
    Hop has
    Floyds main reason for fighting at all is money
    Hops main reason for fighting was/is legacy.
    Floyd has coveted the 0
    Hop has coveted his place in history.
    Floyd has used the Arum excuse to avoid certain fights
    Hop has never claimed a bridge burned as a reason not to fight.
    Floyd thinks boxing is all about ppv
    Hop thinks its all about the challenge

  6. #6
    El Kabong Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Steve Frank
    Joe Lipsey
    William Bo James
    John David Jackson
    Glenn Johnson
    Andrew Council
    Robert Allen
    Robert Allen
    Antwun Echols
    Syd Vanderpool
    Antwun Echols
    Keith Holmes
    Felix Trinidad
    Carl Daniels
    Morrade Hakkar
    William Joppy
    Robert Allen
    Oscar De la Hoya
    Howard Eastman

    Those are the guys Hopkins defended his title against successfully and while there ARE some good names out there a lot of those names came from 154 and they were not "true middleweights" and that's where a lot of the criticism of Hopkins comes from. There were certainly threats to Hopkins at 168, but it isn't required that a fighter move up if he can run a division.

    Floyd on the other hand has done the exact opposite he never stayed put in 1 division for long. He moved fight to fight and took on some interesting (and some not so interesting) fighters.


    The crux of the argument is "What is ducking fighters" and "What is domination"? Is it moving division to division or is it staying put? Is it taking on the best of boxing in general or the best of your division? I personally think Floyd could have taken the Hopkins route but would have gotten bored with the monotony of the same stagnant division. I think BHop could have jumped division to division and had great success as well, but I believe he liked the consistency of middleweight and hell he had a formula that worked, give up about 4 rounds, warm up, and close the show with purpose (not typically a KO, but dominate at the end).

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    The crux of the argument is "What is ducking fighters" and "What is domination"? Is it moving division to division or is it staying put? Is it taking on the best of boxing in general or the best of your division? I personally think Floyd could have taken the Hopkins route but would have gotten bored with the monotony of the same stagnant division. I think BHop could have jumped division to division and had great success as well, but I believe he liked the consistency of middleweight and hell he had a formula that worked, give up about 4 rounds, warm up, and close the show with purpose (not typically a KO, but dominate at the end).
    It's a good question. I admire both. I admire Hopkins for his consistency and discipline to stay at the same weight, but I also admire guys like Floyd, Pac, SRR, Roy Jones, ect ect who transcended weight divisions and titles.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    El the middleweight division stopped being the division it was when boxing went from 8 to 17 and no other middleweight after the expansion had any tougher era and all of them fought x welters.

    It just kills me to no end that here we have a guy in Hopkins that is nothing short o a modern day Archie Moore and all people can do is belittle him. In fact its not just him. People spend their entire days on forums shitting on these guys. Every fighter Floyd has faced has been spat and shit on as guys with no chance and then when he's beaten them they become some incredible opponent.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by IamInuit View Post
    Let me make this perfectly fucking clear. I dont hate Floyd. I dont hate Hopkins. My personal feelings for these two does not even enter the equation. If people want to say that Bernard is just as good a boxer so what. Criticizing them for saying so does not provide evidence to the contrary. Its simply a statement.

    These child like responses that put all who disagree with Floyd robots as some kind of "hater" is both freakin hilarious, myopic and plain stupid. Its not dialogue its dogma.

    Floyd took very little risks.
    Hop took nothing but risks
    Floyd fought guys that had no chance to beat him
    Hop fought guys that could all beat him
    Floyd never unified one division
    Hop unified middle and double dipped 175 at close to 50
    Floyd has never fought outside Vegas
    Hop has fought all over the place
    Floyd had a boyfriend ref in Cortez
    Hop never had a ref in his pocket
    Floyd has never jumped two weight classes to take on the man of a division
    Hop has
    Floyd has never dropped back down to fight a champion
    Hop has
    Floyds main reason for fighting at all is money
    Hops main reason for fighting was/is legacy.
    Floyd has coveted the 0
    Hop has coveted his place in history.
    Floyd has used the Arum excuse to avoid certain fights
    Hop has never claimed a bridge burned as a reason not to fight.
    Floyd thinks boxing is all about ppv
    Hop thinks its all about the challenge
    Bro you can say you don't hate Floyd all you want, if you say it enough you might actually start believing it yourself, but you sound like a little kid. You're talking about Floyd taking very little risk, you're bringing up where they choose to fight (LOL), you're talking about corrupt refs, who fights for money and who fights for legacy (LOL)... it's some funny shit, dude. It's some hipster shit hahaha.

    It reminds me of when you try to talk music with a hipster and he can't stop telling you how "pure" music was back in the day because you actually needed talent, maaaaaaaan, and nobody cared about the money maaaaaaaaan, it was just for the love of the music and they didn't use sex to sell records, MAAAAAAAAAAN. Hahahaha it's just brutal.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    It's some scorned lover shit haha. Personally I don't like either guy. Bhop has a boring personality and a boring fight style, Floyd is a woman-beating prick who deserves to be in jail.

    It just so happens that both are geniuses and prodigies in boxing. I'd love to come here and say they both stink and are overrated but I can't, I'd just be lying.

  11. #11
    El Kabong Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by IamInuit View Post
    El the middleweight division stopped being the division it was when boxing went from 8 to 17 and no other middleweight after the expansion had any tougher era and all of them fought x welters.

    It just kills me to no end that here we have a guy in Hopkins that is nothing short o a modern day Archie Moore and all people can do is belittle him. In fact its not just him. People spend their entire days on forums shitting on these guys. Every fighter Floyd has faced has been spat and shit on as guys with no chance and then when he's beaten them they become some incredible opponent.
    Absolutely agree man! Floyd has ALWAYS wanted things both ways Pre-fight:"This guy isn't in my league" Post fight: "That guy was a great boxer and I demolished him, praise me!" .....Floyd's lack of humility has indeed hurt how people view him. I think Floyd wanted to be the welterweight version of Ali, always bragging, adored, and despised, loved, and hated, cult of personality, etc.

    Bernard Hopkins was very much a blue collar kind of champion. Sure he had his theater with his masks and all that mess, but at the end of the day he was a cagey fighter who defended his title time and time again like clockwork but got little praise and little media buzz for what he did. Maybe it's due to his style being more cagey than flashy, maybe it's because he's not a pretty guy, maybe it's because he's an ex-con, or maybe it's because other peers of Hopkins were stealing his spotlight ie RJJ & James Toney....Mayweather Jr. didn't have to deal with that all that much as he was never the PEER of Mosley or De la Hoya, but more the Next Generation Star. also Floyd comes from a boxing family, had amateur successes, and was groomed by HBO to be that "Next Big Thing" (no disrespect to Floyd because he has after all backed up everything he's said), Hopkins earned everything he ever achieved in the business.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Who faced the tougher opposition?

    There's a good argument Hopkins did, but he also lost.

    Who'd they miss? Who should Hopkins have faced and didn't? Same for Floyd.

    I would argue Floyd's best wins are Corrales and De La Hoya. I think?

    I'm less impressed by Floyd's recent opponents, considering his contemporaries faced tougher opposition. For example, Cotto faced Pacquiao, Margarito, Trout and Martinez, and at least Pacquiao was in his prime, and Mayweather didn't face any of them.

    Hopkins' recent opponents, Calzaghe, Dawson, Pascal, and Kovalev are probably better than any of Floyd's in that time period, although, once again, Hopkins lost.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Why the fuck is preferring one over the other hating? Can anyone with a straight face and stable mind deny Mayweathers ability and skill? Personally I place Hopkins a notch above Mayweather when it comes to all time or 'great' based on opposition faced, career longevity and adaptability, style(s) and on a side note he did it all with no one setting the table for him and from the bottom up.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    The gap is not as big as I thought it would be as I thought Floyd was better as he has dominated more weight divisions that B Hop. However Hopkins opponents at the weight are more challenging.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Comparing Floyd and Bhop's opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    adaptability, style(s)
    Please please please explain to me how Hopkins beats Floyd in adaptability?


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