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Thread: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Slim there's a real lot there to digest in 1 post but basically, holding a poll does nothing.

    If 99 ppl out of 100 call red blue, even though it's clearly red on a detector, then that means that 99 ppl are colour blind, not that 99 ppl are right! Politics doesn't determine truth, facts determine proof.

    We're not talking politics, we're talking what you and virtually you alone here call facts

    Most of my opinions are supported by facts. Where not I state usually it's my opinion.
    Haven't seen them as most here who respond to your posts {in particular} seem to state the same

    For instance, I KNOW WK has faced the most quality real HW's of any boxer. Because he has faced the most 200+ opponents for a start. Key sentence here is (I KNOW), once again your opinion

    Of these, he has faced more non-bummy opponents (those that have not lost a significant ratio of their fights, they have BETTER records than the opponents of any other boxer in total.
    Alot a fighters have great records, but that doenst mean they were quality opponents.

    And these opponents achieved their records by competing with heavier and higher quality boxers in turn. In other words the WORTHINESS of the wins of these opponents (the opponents opponents of Wladimir) was better as well!
    Because they were heavier? I will agree with the others who responded to this point about heavier makes better.
    Your posts started off strong but got progressively worse as they continued.
    When in doubt don't down just the post, down the person who posted...But I admit I feel all off your posts start of weak and get weaker, that is why I dont initiate posts with you, I respond to your posts.

    One of the last decent laughs was about modern guys fighting for the purse these days and without heart. LEt me tell you that nobody becomes a professional boxer by necessity today, they really WANT to be there! This is a BLOOD SPORT! A pro boxer is an elite fighting machine, nothing less and they are there to WIN!

    You should watch Morrade Hakkar vs Bhop and tell us if Hakkar had heart. I could name ten more, but it appears you only respect your own opinions

    Past times boxers were expected to be "entertainers" as well, winning was LESS important to them (IN MY OPINION, which makes intuitive sense). Because it was THOSE guys fighting more for the purse than any other because they needed the cash to bloody EAT!
    I Agree, somewhat..

    When you mentioned bum Billy Conn vs Joe Louis as some sort of proof, it became unreadable.
    I mentioned Billy Conn because you mentioned Joe Louis as one of the few to fight monsters, so I proved that Billy the bum...beat Joe so bad that Joe Louis son described the fight as a beating his pop took.

    Joe Louis himself said to Conn..when Conn said you could've let me win and I'd given you a rematch.
    To which Joe Louis responded, why? You had the belt for 13 rounds.
    So yes it is laughable that you give credit to Joe Louis a few posts before, then when I talk of a fighter who boxed him well until the KO...you down that fighter as a bum and said my post became undreadable, well no problem I like most here feel similar about your posts
    Last edited by SlimTrae; 12-16-2014 at 11:54 PM.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fan johnny View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Muhammad Ali had fast hands and was the greatest HW of all time, I don't see what more can be said about him.
    Well... I just learned that because he had no reflexes he wanted to get hit to wear down his opponents. Who knew? Maybe that where Mayorga got his inspiration for his fight with mosley?
    There's no question about it...

    Even his daughter claimed so about her own father "He would let his opponents beat on him in order for them to wear themselves out"

    And a trainer during sparring "Ali, why you keep getting hit?" Ali.. "I want to get accustomed to the blows".

    It was exactly this strategy he employed vs Foreman and others.

    I will submit a comprehensive list if you like stretching back throughout career and you can inform me where my analysis has gone haywire.
    You need guidance on how to do an analysis. But, before you can attempt to break something down into individual parts, you need to understand how the system works and what is the intent. What you do is seperate things, take them out of context, then make assumptions that is convoluted with inappropriate applications that completely loose focus of the systems intent. Some people call this being delusional.

  3. #138
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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    I mentioned Billy Conn because you mentioned Joe Louis as one of the few to fight monsters, so I proved that Billy the bum...beat Joe so bad that Joe Louis son described the fight as a beating his pop took.

    Joe Louis himself said to Conn..when Conn said you could've let me win and I'd given you a rematch.
    To which Joe Louis responded, why? You had the belt for 13 rounds.
    So yes it is laughable that you give credit to Joe Louis a few posts before, then when I talk of a fighter who boxed him well until the KO...you down that fighter as a bum and said my post became undreadable, well no problem I like most here feel similar about your posts
    Let me elaborate.. OF all the HW champs pre 80's, ONLY Joe Louis beat mention-worthy giants! Like Primo Carnera who had a good record. All the big fighters that say MArciano etc beat were ALL BUMS.

    And you respond by mentioning Billy Conn vs Joe Louis, 2 Cruisers in cruiser fights as a proof of giant beating? Not sold! LOL

    And I didn't argue with mere weight (although that is a large part of it) but also the overall quality at 3 different levels (boxer in question, their opponents and their opponents opponents).
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Now listen up you 2 above...

    You are fond of saying certain previous eras were better than present (The Louis era, the Ali era etc.)

    But how do you assess that?

    OF all the opponents that Louis or Ali fought for example, how do you know that these opponents were any good? Did you watch all of their fights leading up to there meeting with Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis?

    Because if you are claiming that you did, then you are basically claiming that you have watched something like 2000 fights or so!

    That's why you HAVE to go by the records of the opponents opponents as a guide to their overall quality (irrespective of weight to start) and THEN go by the weight of their opponents opponents as the next filter to get an overall picture of the HW worthiness of these opponents (a welterweight opponent, even if high quality, is NOT a good gague for HW).

    And THEN we can start to assess video performances of these fighters!

    I have found the above formula instrumental and highly predictive of the quality of past time boxers (and even current ones) before I've even WATCHED them fight.

    If you seriously claim you guys are making an objective analysis based on watching all 2000 fights involving the champ in question and all there opponents fights as well, then I call BS immediately!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Tyson and Lewis would wipe the 2000 heavyweights.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    (overall) 90's HW's would wipe the floor with 2000 HW's

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Now listen up you 2 above...

    You are fond of saying certain previous eras were better than present (The Louis era, the Ali era etc.)
    (just the 90's)

    But how do you assess that?
    basically by opinion..LOL! aka IMO

    OF all the opponents that Louis or Ali fought for example, how do you know that these opponents were any good? Did you watch all of their fights leading up to there meeting with Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis?

    Ali's era IMO wasn't the best skilled or talented, just the most known because of how popular boxing was at the time. As far as Joe Louis, I go by his own saying: BUM of the month club. I usually get ragged by my older generation as you with me . The 50 & up club thinks Joe Louis era was the best, I dont.

    Because if you are claiming that you did, then you are basically claiming that you have watched something like 2000 fights or so!
    Agreed, as no one here is making that claim.

    That's why you HAVE to go by the records of the opponents opponents as a guide to their overall quality (irrespective of weight to start) and THEN go by the weight of their opponents opponents as the next filter to get an overall picture of the HW worthiness of these opponents (a welterweight opponent, even if high quality, is NOT a good gague for HW).

    We will have to agree to disagree, but I respect your point here.

    And THEN we can start to assess video performances of these fighters!

    I have found the above formula instrumental and highly predictive of the quality of past time boxers (and even current ones) before I've even WATCHED them fight.

    That's cool. Everyone needs a formula to base their decisions on, For me I also use to..and I mean (use) to read Ring Magazine in the 80's. That was another way to learn of fights. Funny thing was by the time an issue would come out...it would be a month or so behind, but it was detailed enough to list all the fights, how it went down, where it went down. Just as in the 1940s?? many use to go by the radio as their formula for determinin who fought who and how they ranked against each other


    If you seriously claim you guys are making an objective analysis based on watching all 2000 fights involving the champ in question and all there opponents fights as well, then I call BS immediately!
    I can't speak for Master or anyone else, but if I could, I think we are all arguing our hearts out with this in mind: IMO.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?


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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Tyson and Lewis would wipe the 2000 heavyweights.
    I think Lewis would be a dominant champ of the 2000s too, I also think he would be KOed a couple times here and there too as he was in his own era.

    I think Tyson could whip most opposition but I do think Tyson would struggle to beat and sometimes be beaten by some of the better 2000's HW's, as occurred during his own era too.

    Bascially I see them being about as dominant as they already were because I think the quality of the eras is somewhat comparable. As are the weights of the boxers.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Tyson and Lewis would wipe the 2000 heavyweights.
    I think Lewis would be a dominant champ of the 2000s too, I also think he would be KOed a couple times here and there too as he was in his own era.

    I think Tyson could whip most opposition but I do think Tyson would struggle to beat and sometimes be beaten by some of the better 2000's HW's, as occurred during his own era too.

    Bascially I see them being about as dominant as they already were because I think the quality of the eras is somewhat comparable. As are the weights of the boxers.
    Name me someone that could beat them at their best?
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Tyson and Lewis would wipe the 2000 heavyweights.
    I think Lewis would be a dominant champ of the 2000s too, I also think he would be KOed a couple times here and there too as he was in his own era.

    I think Tyson could whip most opposition but I do think Tyson would struggle to beat and sometimes be beaten by some of the better 2000's HW's, as occurred during his own era too.

    Bascially I see them being about as dominant as they already were because I think the quality of the eras is somewhat comparable. As are the weights of the boxers.
    Name me someone that could beat them at their best?
    I don't think any of them could beat Lewis at his BEST.

    As for Tyson, MANY of them could potentially beat them at his best. I do not want to say, this one could and this one couldn't because that sparks serious debate about something I don't really know. But it's hard to define what was even the best version of Tyson!

    The version you automatically select as the PRIME Tyson (most likely 88 or so) never fought opponents as difficult as he would have to face today, and already he failed to knock several of them out that would be pasted today. That is telling!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Sparking debate about something you do not know? what change a habit of a lifetime.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Now listen up you 2 above...

    You are fond of saying certain previous eras were better than present (The Louis era, the Ali era etc.)
    (just the 90's)

    But how do you assess that?
    basically by opinion..LOL! aka IMO

    OF all the opponents that Louis or Ali fought for example, how do you know that these opponents were any good? Did you watch all of their fights leading up to there meeting with Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis?

    Ali's era IMO wasn't the best skilled or talented, just the most known because of how popular boxing was at the time. As far as Joe Louis, I go by his own saying: BUM of the month club. I usually get ragged by my older generation as you with me . The 50 & up club thinks Joe Louis era was the best, I dont.

    Because if you are claiming that you did, then you are basically claiming that you have watched something like 2000 fights or so!
    Agreed, as no one here is making that claim.

    That's why you HAVE to go by the records of the opponents opponents as a guide to their overall quality (irrespective of weight to start) and THEN go by the weight of their opponents opponents as the next filter to get an overall picture of the HW worthiness of these opponents (a welterweight opponent, even if high quality, is NOT a good gague for HW).

    We will have to agree to disagree, but I respect your point here.

    And THEN we can start to assess video performances of these fighters!

    I have found the above formula instrumental and highly predictive of the quality of past time boxers (and even current ones) before I've even WATCHED them fight.

    That's cool. Everyone needs a formula to base their decisions on, For me I also use to..and I mean (use) to read Ring Magazine in the 80's. That was another way to learn of fights. Funny thing was by the time an issue would come out...it would be a month or so behind, but it was detailed enough to list all the fights, how it went down, where it went down. Just as in the 1940s?? many use to go by the radio as their formula for determinin who fought who and how they ranked against each other


    If you seriously claim you guys are making an objective analysis based on watching all 2000 fights involving the champ in question and all there opponents fights as well, then I call BS immediately!
    I can't speak for Master or anyone else, but if I could, I think we are all arguing our hearts out with this in mind: IMO.
    So you mean to tell me I've been arguing this whole time with somebody who is merely claiming the 90's were a superior division? That's all?

    Well then, in that case.. IN MY OPINION I simply believe they (the 90's, 00's and now 10's) are pretty much comparable. I base this on what I observe and on the statistics.

    But given your points above, it's clear I was not even addressing this to you at all! The ABOVE post of mine was issued to guys like @Master @fan johnny and the rest of the OTNB (Old Time Nut Bag) community who DO claim that such eras as the Ali or Louis era featured superior quality boxers. In other words they support fighters the background of which they are largely unaware and have not bothered to CHECK the ACTUAL performance of these boxers.

    If you think the 90's was a superior division, I can find that a respectable opinion. They were all impressive, strong boxers with excellent records and championed by one of the best fighters of all time!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Have you seen title fights that Wlad has been in? The challengers have been truly awful.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Now listen up you 2 above...

    You are fond of saying certain previous eras were better than present (The Louis era, the Ali era etc.)
    (just the 90's)

    But how do you assess that?
    basically by opinion..LOL! aka IMO

    OF all the opponents that Louis or Ali fought for example, how do you know that these opponents were any good? Did you watch all of their fights leading up to there meeting with Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis?

    Ali's era IMO wasn't the best skilled or talented, just the most known because of how popular boxing was at the time. As far as Joe Louis, I go by his own saying: BUM of the month club. I usually get ragged by my older generation as you with me . The 50 & up club thinks Joe Louis era was the best, I dont.

    Because if you are claiming that you did, then you are basically claiming that you have watched something like 2000 fights or so!
    Agreed, as no one here is making that claim.

    That's why you HAVE to go by the records of the opponents opponents as a guide to their overall quality (irrespective of weight to start) and THEN go by the weight of their opponents opponents as the next filter to get an overall picture of the HW worthiness of these opponents (a welterweight opponent, even if high quality, is NOT a good gague for HW).

    We will have to agree to disagree, but I respect your point here.

    And THEN we can start to assess video performances of these fighters!

    I have found the above formula instrumental and highly predictive of the quality of past time boxers (and even current ones) before I've even WATCHED them fight.

    That's cool. Everyone needs a formula to base their decisions on, For me I also use to..and I mean (use) to read Ring Magazine in the 80's. That was another way to learn of fights. Funny thing was by the time an issue would come out...it would be a month or so behind, but it was detailed enough to list all the fights, how it went down, where it went down. Just as in the 1940s?? many use to go by the radio as their formula for determinin who fought who and how they ranked against each other


    If you seriously claim you guys are making an objective analysis based on watching all 2000 fights involving the champ in question and all there opponents fights as well, then I call BS immediately!
    I can't speak for Master or anyone else, but if I could, I think we are all arguing our hearts out with this in mind: IMO.
    So you mean to tell me I've been arguing this whole time with somebody who is merely claiming the 90's were a superior division? That's all?

    Well then, in that case.. IN MY OPINION I simply believe they (the 90's, 00's and now 10's) are pretty much comparable. I base this on what I observe and on the statistics.

    But given your points above, it's clear I was not even addressing this to you at all! The ABOVE post of mine was issued to guys like @Master @fan johnny and the rest of the OTNB (Old Time Nut Bag) community who DO claim that such eras as the Ali or Louis era featured superior quality boxers. In other words they support fighters the background of which they are largely unaware and have not bothered to CHECK the ACTUAL performance of these boxers.

    If you think the 90's was a superior division, I can find that a respectable opinion. They were all impressive, strong boxers with excellent records and championed by one of the best fighters of all time!
    LOL! It's all good.

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