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Thread: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stiverne

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Career defining fight would be a big fight that captures the public attention, against a credible fighter who people believe has a chance and he puts on a great show.

    I can not name a career defining fight of his. Can you?

    I'd say a large majority of his fights "captures the public's attention" seeing how many asses he puts in the seats. Credible fighter well let's see: Chris Byrd x 2, Sam Peter x 2, Tony Thompson x 2, Chagaev (on short notice for both), David Haye, and typically he scores KO's. The Pulev fight for example was vs a guy with a great amateur pedigree who was undefeated as a professional and Wlad walked right through him.....but I digress name the "career defining fights" for Larry Holmes was it vs 40-4 Ken Norton, the 59-7-1 Earnie Shavers, the 56-3 Muhammad Ali, or were his fights vs the 22-0-0 Renoldo Snipes, the 15-0 Tim Witherspoon, and the 25-0 Gerry Cooney his "career defining fights"? How about Lennox Lewis? were his career defining fights vs the old boys Tyson and Holyfield or vs the newbs like Grant and Briggs?

    But hey keep adding on those qualifiers so you can give Wlad just enough credit without admitting how good he actually is. And just because YOU aren't watching, doesn't mean everyone else ain't watching. He sells tickets REGARDLESS of what you think.


    Also Larry Holmes is basically parroting what Pulev said before he actually fought Wlad "He has everything that you need to be a world champion, but he has no heart. He's like a girl."

    To which Wladimir responded with....


    " I don't think he realized he was playing in the champions league."
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    If you type a lot and hide the answers that does not count.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    If you type a lot and hide the answers that does not count.
    CHRIS BYRD x 2

    SAM PETER x 2

    TONY THOMPSON x 2

    RUSLAN CHAGAEV (short notice for both fighters)

    KUBRAT PULEV

    DAVID HAYE



    Can you read those ok gramps? Not too hidden from you are they?
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    That the career defining fights? I am impressed and those fights will go down in boxing folklore.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    That the career defining fights? I am impressed and those fights will go down in boxing folklore.
    I'm sorry Master, but those guys were good fighters whether you accept it or not and Wladimir beat the fuck out of them. Chris Byrd had survived Vitali's punches to win the WBO title, he then lost that title to Wlad. Then before the rematch Chris Byrd was then the longest reigning title holder at the time and Wladimir KO'd him with Byrd attempting to utilize Lamon Brewster's blueprint of pouring on the pressure. Sam Peter was the most dangerous fighter in the division when Wlad was at his lowest point, yeah that fight pretty much defines Wlad's career as it is the turning point for his entire career. Tony Thompson never stopped, never down, Wlad KO's him, then KO's him earlier in the rematch. The Chagaev fight was a huge fight, it was on short notice for both fighters as Haye and Valuev the douchebags they are had pulled out of their fights with Wlad and the aforementioned Chagaev. Pulev was undefeated he had been giving out boxing lessons left right and center and Wlad stopped him easily. David Haye talked his way into stardom and got dealt with in a boxing clinic.

    Those are big fights, Wlad won them, Wlad is an all time great and you can sit around waiting hoping and praying for another Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson or whoever......they aren't coming back.
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    I will give you Sam Peters because he showed heart and courage and I said he is an ATG but not the greatest.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    Cooney 6'5 25-0 23 ko's Walking through Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young- he was a massive specimen with a power punch & a chin. Yet Holmes proved his skill level could nullify, height, jab & power. -& when Cooney hurt him to the body, will power pulled him out- thats what he questions about Wlad--even stating Wlad is good technically, but theres more to boxing than skill.

    Holmes proved at the time a 6'5 boxer which was massive, could be whooped....
    Gerry Cooney was tough but wins over old Ron Lyle and old Ken Norton and old Jimmy Young did not mean he was ready for Larry Holmes. Cooney was 25-0-0 but he had never been tested by a guy in his prime at the time, he didn't fight Marvis Frazier or Carl Williams, or Renaldo Snipes or Tim Witherspoon...are you kidding me?

    He should've fought Marvis Frazier before Holmes? I thought Cooney fought Holmes in 1982.
    In 1982 wasn't Frazier about 6-0 with no fights in 1982. Carl Williams debuted in 1982. And you ask me am I kidding?
    Holmes stopped Marvis in (1) before Tyson did & Holmes was never-ever known for shit like that.
    You think a 6'5 KO fighter would be compromised by a 6'0- barely 210lbs Marvis w/76inch reach + a 38%KO ratio 21 fights in 8 years?
    Snipes would've been a good fight, but we're playing semantics here; Who he didn't fight can't determine what he would've done or not. He never fought a Snipes & Snipes never fought a 6'5 power puncher. What you've written at this point comes across as totally subjective; its your opinion. Cool, but don't call it facts he wasn't ready. The point I made which you negated was: at that time... he had 25 fights over five years in....And we hadn't seen a man that size dominate.
    Spinks was the only other guy to beat him. And Forman was when he came back...
    He didn't fight Witherspoon. OK, but how did he become litmus test of whose ready?


    Sure he could punch but his boxing never got tested the deepest he went into a fight before Holmes was 8 rounds...8!!! And he lasted 13 with Holmes, why so long? Couldn't Larry have ended it sooner Why, was he supposed to have ended it sooner? What is your point? First you say Coony didn't have boxing skills, then here you claim this non-tested boxer went 13 rounds with Holmes. Sounds like a diss' on Holmes just to debate Slim. OK, then by your admission Holmes was barely good enough to beat a non-tested boxer. Not me. I think he went 13 rounds, because I said- the kid had a chin. Did you read that? And he had will. Just like Puritty had will-will that Wlad couldn't wilt.



    Purrity, for fucks sake Wlad was 22 when that fight happened. He was young,
    Cassius was 22, Tyson was younger than that. You actually injected his age as a reason to him losing? Think about it...how does a 22 year kid run out of stamina before a 32 year old who had gotten his ass whizzipped about a dozen times b4?

    he was beating the fuck out of Ross and just got tired,
    Yeah, I know, I said it here: Wlad is throwing nicely, bustin' through Puritty's guard--see- U do one side Wlad's & that's it. I gave my opinion ALSO on Purity-- what was going through his mind? Why didn't he wilt to all that punishment like so many others? I speculate: WILL Power. You didn't bother.
    That is what Holmes is talking about and a few others here who agree with him. Wlad for the umpteenth time- has defeated every type of skilled fighter. Inside, outside. But he has yet to find a dog fight like he did when he was young...and survive.



    it happens ESPECIALLY to young fighters
    (IMO-Not to ALL time Greats)...they fight through the fatigue. Even fat ass James Toney for example fights through fatigue...that's why Wlad is great for his era, but not necessarily an ATG.



    and the fact that Wlad could go back to that fight, look at it objectively, and then correct the mistakes THAT is the sign of a true champion!
    Yes it is, no complaints from me.

    Ross Purrity's manager really dodged a bullet with his fighter's health allowing that fight to continue, but that's how it works sometimes. I disagree. he held a high guard and didn't really get busted up. Or did he? I dunno. Did he get beatan like Shannon Briggs? Like Lewis on Tyson? I never saw Purity look too shook. So the only luck they had..was getting the fight. Purity's WILL power did the rest.

    Sanders was a power punching southpaw....imagine if Earnie Shavers was a southpaw, would Ali have fought him? Ali fought everybody, really poor comparison there.
    Would Holmes have fought him?
    The fact that he was a southpaw- powerpuncher means what? Every fighter has something to bring to the table--and a ATG neutralizes it.. Maybe your definition of an ATG is different than mines NP.

    Sanders didn't help himself by training more on the golf course than he did in the ring, but what a talent. He threw short, quick, precise punches from a southpaw stance and they packed a wallop....Wlad wasn't out cold, Wlad didn't get counted out with his back on the canvas, he got caught, couldn't recover and that's that. He went back, took note of the mistakes he made and hasn't made them sense....
    Of course..how can he? Since then he has fought guys just as talented & in some cases stronger & skilled...but to my knowledge Wlad hasn't fought a person willing to take it to the dog house.

    that learning process, that ability to cover his flaws, that makes him a great fighter.
    Yes he is.
    Since that loss Wladimir has fought a number of southpaws and none have given him trouble...none are the puncher Corrie was (r.i.p) but none have given Wlad trouble.
    Here again we disagree. You think it's about southpaw, I think he was a crude south paw who stood up, squared his shoulder, lousy stance...but his demeanor was nasssttyy!! That's why he won IMO.

    Mike Tyson did PLENTY of clinching, Ali did PLENTY of clinching....can people not accept that Wladimir is the best heavyweight in the world? It's not by a small margin either he just absolutely tooled the best the division had to offer in Pulev, he just smacked the life out of the guy and with his 3rd best punch too!
    I'm a HOP fan , so clinching is not what I'm talking about- you've either evaded it, or I just failed to get my point across (to you): Hop, Ali &even Lennox clinched to set traps- Especially Hop, he holds with one hand and hits with the other...With Wlad? I end the way I started it: When he clinches it is usually an ass-out clinch. No effective clinch w/one hand & bopping with the other. When he is in a dog fight...He won't throw he clinches. That's not the sign of an ATG its the sign of someone trying to survive. But that's just my take.

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    He won't throw in clinches because it isn't smart, it doesn't suit what he does best so in using the clinch as he does he's not allowing the other fighter the chance to get into the fight.....that sounds pretty great to me

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Wlad has earned the right to be an ATG because he has overcome adversity in his early defeats and knock downs, being undefeated in over 10 years, beating the best out there and having more defences than anyone except Louis but he has had no career defining fights during the 10 years.

    The opposition have been a joke and he has struggled against some of them on the biggest platforms to showcase his quality. Yet he does not provide that entertaining wow factor (bar his last fight).
    Tony Thompson
    Ruslan Chagaev
    Sultan Ibragimov
    Samuel Peter
    David Haye
    Alexander Povetkin
    Chris Byrd
    Kubrat Pulev
    Hasim Rahman...

    Please tell me who has had similarly tough opponents than just this small selection right here

    If any of your favourites ever fought these guys, no matter who won or lost, they would have been considered a proof of the greatness of times past and would be heralded as the greatest names on any resume.

    Each one of them smashes out almost any ATG, HOFer easily and badly.

    Yet Wladimir dominated most of them...

    IT doesn't get anymore "career defining" than that.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    I've never been a big Wlad fan, but on the other hand Larry Holmes has always been a whining, bitter, crying little bitch.
    He should just STFU and go count his money and enjoy his old age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post
    Cooney 6'5 25-0 23 ko's Walking through Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young- he was a massive specimen with a power punch & a chin. Yet Holmes proved his skill level could nullify, height, jab & power. -& when Cooney hurt him to the body, will power pulled him out- thats what he questions about Wlad--even stating Wlad is good technically, but theres more to boxing than skill.

    Holmes proved at the time a 6'5 boxer which was massive, could be whooped....
    Gerry Cooney was tough but wins over old Ron Lyle and old Ken Norton and old Jimmy Young did not mean he was ready for Larry Holmes. Cooney was 25-0-0 but he had never been tested by a guy in his prime at the time, he didn't fight Marvis Frazier or Carl Williams, or Renaldo Snipes or Tim Witherspoon...are you kidding me?

    He should've fought Marvis Frazier before Holmes? I thought Cooney fought Holmes in 1982.
    In 1982 wasn't Frazier about 6-0 with no fights in 1982. Carl Williams debuted in 1982. And you ask me am I kidding?
    Holmes stopped Marvis in (1) before Tyson did & Holmes was never-ever known for shit like that.
    You think a 6'5 KO fighter would be compromised by a 6'0- barely 210lbs Marvis w/76inch reach + a 38%KO ratio 21 fights in 8 years?
    Snipes would've been a good fight, but we're playing semantics here; Who he didn't fight can't determine what he would've done or not. He never fought a Snipes & Snipes never fought a 6'5 power puncher. What you've written at this point comes across as totally subjective; its your opinion. Cool, but don't call it facts he wasn't ready. The point I made which you negated was: at that time... he had 25 fights over five years in....And we hadn't seen a man that size dominate.
    Spinks was the only other guy to beat him. And Forman was when he came back...
    He didn't fight Witherspoon. OK, but how did he become litmus test of whose ready?


    Sure he could punch but his boxing never got tested the deepest he went into a fight before Holmes was 8 rounds...8!!! And he lasted 13 with Holmes, why so long? Couldn't Larry have ended it sooner Why, was he supposed to have ended it sooner? What is your point? First you say Coony didn't have boxing skills, then here you claim this non-tested boxer went 13 rounds with Holmes. Sounds like a diss' on Holmes just to debate Slim. OK, then by your admission Holmes was barely good enough to beat a non-tested boxer. Not me. I think he went 13 rounds, because I said- the kid had a chin. Did you read that? And he had will. Just like Puritty had will-will that Wlad couldn't wilt.



    Purrity, for fucks sake Wlad was 22 when that fight happened. He was young,
    Cassius was 22, Tyson was younger than that. You actually injected his age as a reason to him losing? Think about it...how does a 22 year kid run out of stamina before a 32 year old who had gotten his ass whizzipped about a dozen times b4?

    he was beating the fuck out of Ross and just got tired,
    Yeah, I know, I said it here: Wlad is throwing nicely, bustin' through Puritty's guard--see- U do one side Wlad's & that's it. I gave my opinion ALSO on Purity-- what was going through his mind? Why didn't he wilt to all that punishment like so many others? I speculate: WILL Power. You didn't bother.
    That is what Holmes is talking about and a few others here who agree with him. Wlad for the umpteenth time- has defeated every type of skilled fighter. Inside, outside. But he has yet to find a dog fight like he did when he was young...and survive.



    it happens ESPECIALLY to young fighters
    (IMO-Not to ALL time Greats)...they fight through the fatigue. Even fat ass James Toney for example fights through fatigue...that's why Wlad is great for his era, but not necessarily an ATG.



    and the fact that Wlad could go back to that fight, look at it objectively, and then correct the mistakes THAT is the sign of a true champion!
    Yes it is, no complaints from me.

    Ross Purrity's manager really dodged a bullet with his fighter's health allowing that fight to continue, but that's how it works sometimes. I disagree. he held a high guard and didn't really get busted up. Or did he? I dunno. Did he get beatan like Shannon Briggs? Like Lewis on Tyson? I never saw Purity look too shook. So the only luck they had..was getting the fight. Purity's WILL power did the rest.

    Sanders was a power punching southpaw....imagine if Earnie Shavers was a southpaw, would Ali have fought him? Ali fought everybody, really poor comparison there.
    Would Holmes have fought him?
    The fact that he was a southpaw- powerpuncher means what? Every fighter has something to bring to the table--and a ATG neutralizes it.. Maybe your definition of an ATG is different than mines NP.

    Sanders didn't help himself by training more on the golf course than he did in the ring, but what a talent. He threw short, quick, precise punches from a southpaw stance and they packed a wallop....Wlad wasn't out cold, Wlad didn't get counted out with his back on the canvas, he got caught, couldn't recover and that's that. He went back, took note of the mistakes he made and hasn't made them sense....
    Of course..how can he? Since then he has fought guys just as talented & in some cases stronger & skilled...but to my knowledge Wlad hasn't fought a person willing to take it to the dog house.

    that learning process, that ability to cover his flaws, that makes him a great fighter.
    Yes he is.
    Since that loss Wladimir has fought a number of southpaws and none have given him trouble...none are the puncher Corrie was (r.i.p) but none have given Wlad trouble.
    Here again we disagree. You think it's about southpaw, I think he was a crude south paw who stood up, squared his shoulder, lousy stance...but his demeanor was nasssttyy!! That's why he won IMO.

    Mike Tyson did PLENTY of clinching, Ali did PLENTY of clinching....can people not accept that Wladimir is the best heavyweight in the world? It's not by a small margin either he just absolutely tooled the best the division had to offer in Pulev, he just smacked the life out of the guy and with his 3rd best punch too!
    I'm a HOP fan , so clinching is not what I'm talking about- you've either evaded it, or I just failed to get my point across (to you): Hop, Ali &even Lennox clinched to set traps- Especially Hop, he holds with one hand and hits with the other...With Wlad? I end the way I started it: When he clinches it is usually an ass-out clinch. No effective clinch w/one hand & bopping with the other. When he is in a dog fight...He won't throw he clinches. That's not the sign of an ATG its the sign of someone trying to survive. But that's just my take.
    Sorry, but that is BS. If you need proof go watch Ali/Spinks II again. That fight was a complete shitshow. I counted the clinches initiated by Ali years ago because I was so disgusted by that fight. Only counting clinches where the ref was forced to break. And only counting where no legal punches were thrown. I say legal because Ali threw as many rabbit punches in his fights as any fighter in history. If I remember correctly it averaged 16 clinches initiated by Ali that the ref was forced to separate per round. Do you realize how much clinching that is? That is jab, right, hold until the ref separates. Jab, right, hold until the ref separates, repeat until the fight is over. Only varying to throw the occasional illegal punch.

    I like Ali a hell of a lot more than Wladimir. But the absurd double standards this guy faces force me to speak up for him. Wladimir has fought top guy after top guy for over a decade. Just give the man his props. Don't qualify his props. Don't throw backhanded compliments out there only so you can get a dig in after.

    The dude has some flaws, guess what, so did the greatest. It can be argued Ali never beat Norton. And he lost to Frazier, and Spinks, and he struggled against some pretty crappy fighters. And... It doesn't matter! We don't throw it out there constantly because it doesn't matter. He's the greatest because of what he did. That's what matters, what you do. And Wladimir has made his adjustments and ruled for over a decade, that's what Wladimir did!

    Is he the most exciting, no. But he's an amazing physical specimen with shocking speed for his size, ridiculous power, amazing coordination, he's smart and he has heart. His heart has been demonstrated repeatedly. I can show multiple occasions where the badass Mike Tyson decided he didn't want any more. There are no examples where Wladimir chose to stay down. Boxing fans seem to have warped opinions about everything. If you talk like a badass you are a badass, no. I can name 20 "badasses" off the top of my head that chose to stay down. And I can name 20 "soft" fighters that never in their careers chose to stay down. I can name many many guys with "legendary beards" who were KOed and many guys with "questionable beards" who were never KOed. There is so much opinion in these damn talks, sometimes you just have to say

    That guy made a style that has ruled the sport for over a decade, he's a f'n badass.(I say sometimes very loosely because in all of history it's only happened twice, those guys must be a couple badasses)

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Wow, Kabong is really ripping grandpa @Master a new one today.

    Rarely seen such ownage!
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    I think Larry got tripped up there, actually sounds like he was referring to Wilder and Stive with "They'll and they" about 7 times If anything to say Wlad has no jab is a sure sign of an open bar policy and a thirsty Larry.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Wow, Kabong is really ripping grandpa @Master a new one today.

    Rarely seen such ownage!
    That is what you call ownage? You are seriously deluded my friend.

    Slim just responded to his post and it is good healthy debate. See what you want to see but the truth is the truth.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stive

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    He won't throw in clinches because it isn't smart, it doesn't suit what he does best so in using the clinch as he does he's not allowing the other fighter the chance to get into the fight.....that sounds pretty great to me
    End game is: gotta do what works. I agree. It does work well for him. (clinching)

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