Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stiverne

[SlimTrae]

Holmes proved at the time a 6'5 boxer which was massive, could be whooped....

Sanders was a power punching southpaw.... The fact that he was a southpaw- powerpuncher means what? Every fighter has something to bring to the table--and a ATG neutralizes it.. Maybe your definition of an ATG is different than mines NP.

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Sorry, but that is BS. If you need proof go watch Ali/Spinks II again.
You bypassed the whole conversation to an example in the last paragraph? That is B.S.
Take my conversation out of context...and I will put it back in context.
Kabong & I disagreeing on Cooney's ability to fight Holmes-as a measurement to small guys who have beatan the BIG guy, yet in agreement that he was a hard puncher. Looking at his competition & determining if he had fought the best opposition to prepare him for Holmes.
WHat you're doing is like telling someone a movie aint good because you took issue with the last 5 minutes...in this case, my last paragraph. Thats a looongg way to go to find fault, dude.

That fight was a complete shitshow.
So.
What does one fight have to do with the topic? You took an example- at the ass-end of the discussion and want me to debate the legitmacy of a single fight that has what to deal with Holmes assertion that Wlad hasn't had a defining fight?

I counted the clinches initiated by Ali years ago because I was so disgusted by that fight.
Once again this is a thread about Holmes and look at how far you go to make a point. So, I will go there with you. I have no problems asserting that a post-Ali clinched-over the top. I also have no problem knowing you are talking post 1970's lay on the rope like a dope Ali. MY many threads here show that I count 1960-1967 Clay/Ali as a totally different fighter than post 1970's Ali.

Only counting clinches where the ref was forced to break. And only counting where no legal punches were thrown. I say legal because Ali threw as many rabbit punches in his fights as any fighter in history. If I remember correctly it averaged 16 clinches initiated by Ali that the ref was forced to separate per round. Do you realize how much clinching that is?

Not really. Because the amount of clinching in that one fight has never cause me to remember it.
Far too many fights where clinches are initiated for me to single one out & inject it into this thread, but ..be my guest U have the honors to that one.

That is jab, right, hold until the ref separates. Jab, right, hold until the ref separates, repeat until the fight is over. Only varying to throw the occasional illegal punch.

I like Ali a hell of a lot more than Wladimir. But the absurd double standards this guy faces force me to speak up for him.
Well, speak up to those who disrepect Wlad's skills. I don't.
So you are way off point addressing that to me, when I have Wlad as a great HW. Just because I dont see the shit eye to eye with you or Kabong, doesnt mean I give doublestandards.

I got one damn critique for him..and I cant have ONE? I got issues with virtually every fighter alive, because no one has been perfect & done it perfect each fight. You don't like me saying he hasnt had a defining fight..and giving my reason why, it's ok- just get over it.

Wladimir has fought top guy after top guy for over a decade.
WHen did I say he hasnt? I clearly wrote he has beatan every style, then I said inside and outside fighters.

Just give the man his props. Don't qualify his props. Don't throw backhanded compliments out there only so you can get a dig in after.
Utter-nutter-bullsshevik. I broke down how he got his ass whooped by 2 guy and I broke down how he has solidified himself since then..so you are quoting yourself..Not me.

Dont tell me to give props to a man I give props to.
I dont ride their nutsack till I can't find something wrong even in the ones I call ATG... . But let the record speak- You took a last paragraph to claim I dont give him his props. Yet I havent been quoted.

The dude has some flaws, guess what, so did the greatest.
I know he does. I pointed them out. Thats a part of a great fighter, they refine themselves.

It can be argued Ali never beat Norton.
Again, not relative to what I mentioned
And he lost to Frazier, and Spinks, and he struggled against some pretty crappy fighters. And... It doesn't matter! We don't throw it out there constantly because it doesn't matter. He's the greatest because of what he did. That's what matters, what you do.
You're preaching to the choir.

And Wladimir has made his adjustments and ruled for over a decade, that's what Wladimir did!
You are on a roll Ron-Money...Reading your post it sounds like I called Wlad a no-skilled talentless bum who never made any adjustments to be what I called him..HERE...A great of his era.

Is he the most exciting, no.
Serious Ron, I may be wrong here, but I am guessing I have never been one on this site to say his style his boring. I can search me, or U can. But you have to back this stuff up-not make it up. I find beauty in the way that big man dominates his foes. I just dont think he has had a foe with heart since a 1/2 skilled- 12 loss Puritty or Sanders. 9 outta 10 I end it with IMO...So IMO those (2) guys fought like dogs from hell. --he woulda loss no matter--shit happens, fighters lose even great ones. I don't mention his loss to Brewster...Notice that? Or ignoring it?
Reason is because that fight was a fluke IMO. Brewster got lucky...shit happens, but with Sanders & Puritty fight one..that was WILL power, something no one speaks of on this site, but me. SInce then, Wlad beats the confidence outta everyone else-to his credit..

But he's an amazing physical specimen with shocking speed for his size, ridiculous power, amazing coordination, he's smart and he has heart. You think he's had a defining fight to show his heart, cool, I don't.

His heart has been demonstrated repeatedly. I can show multiple occasions where the badass Mike Tyson decided he didn't want any more.
Master gets on my case for bringin up Tyson never stood up to those who didn't get bullied, once again you're preaching to the choir.

There are no examples where Wladimir chose to stay down.
Did I say that he did? Please dont say implied, quote it or let it be.

Boxing fans seem to have warped opinions about everything.
Does that include you, or are you better than us...boxing fans?
If you talk like a badass you are a badass, no. I can name 20 "badasses" off the top of my head that chose to stay down.
I can too.
And I can name 20 "soft" fighters that never in their careers chose to stay down. I can name many many guys with "legendary beards" who were KOed and many guys with "questionable beards" who were never KOed. There is so much opinion in these damn talks, sometimes you just have to say
I think Ron my man....thats the purpose of these boards. To discuss, debate and uh,oh Disagree?

That guy made a style that has ruled the sport for over a decade, he's a f'n badass.(I say sometimes very loosely because in all of history it's only happened twice, those guys must be a couple badasses)

Ron, my boxing bro..
U Took one word- clinching..and you turned it into something..that i honestly had to go back re-read what Kabong & I wrote...IMO that is how far off base you took this thread.
Then you summarized how great Wlad's skills are..as If I hadn't. You spoke not one time of the fighters Kabong mentioned in relevance to Holmes fight with a 6'5 powered big man. I addressed each fighter he mentioned. EACH ONE-
last
Here is something Kabong stated- THAT is the sign of a true champion!
Here is what I answered it with: Yes it is, no complaints from me.

[brocktonblockbust]

This thread must not turn into a "3-Cent happy Birthday bash for Floyd "Hemmhoroid" Mayweather"
bwaaaahahahaha

SAM_4552.jpg

[holmcall]

Holmes, please STFU!

[TitoFan]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

[SlimTrae]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

On point. I agree, Wlad's jab is a weapon in itself. So Yeah Holmes is being a bit..uh, Holmes!

[Master]

Holmes had a better jab.

[TitoFan]

My favorite moments of my favorite Holmes fight.

[SlimTrae]

My favorite moments of my favorite Holmes fight.

Ouch!
On the flip side- Passing of the guard- Old man went out on his shield and took that ass-whooping like a man. No clinching. Just mano y mano.
Tyson post fight said it best: "I beat Larry Holmes the legend...NOT Larry Holmes the Champ."

[holmcall]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

He whines more than JMM. And he has nothing to whine about. What an A-hole,

[El Kabong]

Larry does his share of whining but he is pretty much the forgotten man with Ali coming before him and Tyson coming after him....he isn't viewed in a vacuum, he's always seen as the valley between those two champions when he was an All-Time Great and really dominated his era (not necessarily a strong era, but still credit where credit is due).

I think Larry Holmes was the first champion of the modern era people didn't appreciate fully much like how Lennox and oddly enough even Wlad have been treated. So it IS kind of shitty for him to bitch about Wlad in that regard.

[Freedom]

Butterbean was robbed in his fight with Larry Holmes.

[Max Power]

Holmes had a better jab.

Please display for us all a clip of Holmes using his jab in a fight so we can see how fantastic it was?

And then I'll throw you one with Wlad's jab so we can all see the difference.

I said it before.

Larry young, inexperienced, light, not even receiving full credit yet for being a great champion, had a faster jab than Wladimir. Considering there was a 40lb weight difference here, that should not be surprising.

Wlad's is straighter and much harder always and by the time Holmes became something like what we would TODAY call a real HW boxer... Wladimir had a faster jab as well!

[walrus]

Yeah, I said it before in this thread but how can anyone say Wlad doesn't have a jab with a straight face. He has a crazy, powerful, accurate jab. He doesn't stick it out a a range finder, he stumbles opponents with it. IMO Wlad and Floyd have the best jabs in boxing at the moment. And this is coming from a pactard who doesn't much care for Wlad. I think that jab will be a big problem for Wilder if they meet, Wilder just kind of sticks it out or maybe that was because his injury against Stiverne

[Master]

Holmes had a better jab.

Please display for us all a clip of Holmes using his jab in a fight so we can see how fantastic it was?

And then I'll throw you one with Wlad's jab so we can all see the difference.

I said it before.

Larry young, inexperienced, light, not even receiving full credit yet for being a great champion, had a faster jab than Wladimir. Considering there was a 40lb weight difference here, that should not be surprising.

Wlad's is straighter and much harder always and by the time Holmes became something like what we would TODAY call a real HW boxer... Wladimir had a faster jab as well!

Larry had a better jab. Forget showing you check it out yourself.