Some cultures are better than others ? True, False, Impossible to answer conclusively

[Beanz]

So a grown up discussion on an idea that has gained some traction recently, but will be very familiar to students of philosophy. It is an assertion that deserves to be considered in depth and not just dismissed or agreed upon as a fact without doing so. Maybe you think it is an impossible conundrum with too many factors to ever arrive at an answer.Before we start, personally I don't think we will ever come up with a definitive answer, when consensus on what defines a culture is such a huge , old and contested problem, but it is still useful to consider the assertion and try and see exactly why people think it to be true..or not

[Beanz]

There is an option to give more than one answer in case posts in the thread sway you one way or the other. If a thread can never change your opinion then there seems little point discussing anything, but I have learned new things this way before and am not opposed to changing if somebody can present a convincing argument.

[El Kabong]

Since I have been invited here I will be happy to participate and I have selected 'yes' some cultures ARE in fact better than others.


Mores and folkways vary from region to region even within countries and they help create a culture of a geopolitical area. Through time some mores and folkways disappear, some reappear, some go away forever. These mores and folkways are the unwritten rules and manners which guide our individual and group interactions and it is my belief that some cultures have grown better than other cultures.

For example: https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/846402706331713536


That is a social more, a norm apparently in Algeria which I vehemently disagree with and find sickening.....but hey, maybe I'm being judgey


....and just because this post is in the 'Off Topic' board I went ahead and did NOT mention/link to a video of: widow burning, female genital mutilation, stoning to death for adultery, or throwing alleged gay people off of rooftops. But those are also things I find repugnant....no culture is absolutely perfect but YES A MILLION TIMES YES some cultures are indeed better than others.

[Beanz]

Actually you did mention widow burning, female genital mutilation, stoning to death for adultery, or throwing alleged gay people off of rooftops, so there is no need to link to a video of such atrocities, that in itself would surely be unnecessary, and a poor reflection on whichever culture it is you are supposedly part of or representing ?


So am i right in believing that you are using a video clip from a twitter feed to extrapolate a judgment on an entire culture ? Is that everybody within the Algerian border ? Or the society in which they live?


On what are you basing your judgement? Do you take as a given, the fact that your own culture is superior to all others and so you are best placed to judge others? Is there a league of cultures with some at the top and others below and if so where is your culture? Can you even objectively judge your own culture ?

Is your own culture Judeo/Christian or Secular? Does your own countries experiences with France and Algerias have any bearing on your judgment of Algerian culture ? Have you even been there or talked to Algerians or are you basing all of this on one clip and some googling?


Are there no wife beatings in your own culture ? or do they not affect the rating or position of your culture ?

Does the fact that Algeria has passed a law against domestic violence and sexual harassment in 2016 represent a real chance of it moving up the league table and having a chance to compete against your own culture?


Can you judge an entire culture on one element of behavior ?

Are you judging as a culture a country, a religion, a region, a sect, an individual?

Do you consider feminism and women's right as worse than cancer or a case in point to prove one culture as superior to another ?

when you talk about Algeria are you talking about Phonecian culture? Roman Culture? French Culture? or are all of these completely distinct and different from Algerian culture?


Are you actually taking about Algerian culture?

Are those within Algeria who find the same things as you repugnant to be dismissed as not being Algerian because they do not fit into your description?


Can you seriously suggest that cultures themselves are quantifiable and if so who can really stand objectively outside of their own culture and do so ?


Would you consider the hundreds of thousands of Algerians killed by the French as an acceptable price to pay in order to better their culture?

Is that price still worth paying if they refuse to convert?


Are the freedoms of your own culture worth so much that they should be imposed on any other culture whatever the cost and even if they do not want them?

[Beanz]

Morality itself is culturally defined so if you believe that some cultures are better than others what is the arbiter that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that your own culture's morality is the perfect absolute by which all others should be judged ?

[Dark Lord Al]

Yes of course.

[El Kabong]

Actually you did mention widow burning, female genital mutilation, stoning to death for adultery, or throwing alleged gay people off of rooftops, so there is no need to link to a video of such atrocities, that in itself would surely be unnecessary, and a poor reflection on whichever culture it is you are supposedly part of or representing ?

Yes I MENTIONED them which is quite a bit different than SHOWING THEM TO YOU...some people are visual learners, some people don't believe that those things actually occur. Some people are extremely hard headed and won't fucking believe me if I just MENTION them. Those are examples from cultures around the world, widow burning/Sati happens in Hindu populations (the Gangetic Valley, Punjab and Rajasthan; in the west, to the southern Konkan region; and in the south, to Madurai and Vijayanagar), FGM happens in many nations in Africa, stoning happens in the Middle East still to this very day, throwing gays from the rooftops happens in the Middle East to this day and in Saudi Arabia sometimes gays are just beheaded with a sword....and HOPEFULLY most people look on those acts with contempt.

So am i right in believing that you are using a video clip from a twitter feed to extrapolate a judgment on an entire culture ? Is that everybody within the Algerian border ? Or the society in which they live?

The Twitter feed is Al Jazeera's AJ+ channel, they are a Qatar based media outlet and is therefore much more friendly to Islamic practicing nations/people. Spousal abuse is QUESTIONED by them, it's not spoken ill of, the practice is just QUESTIONED....over here in the United States if you beat your wife she can (and fucking should) have you arrested. That is not only a social norm, that's an actual LAW here and my friend that is a gigantic difference. If you hit an animal in the United States you can go to jail! Big difference in cultures man, HUGE in terms of how much violence is socially acceptable.

On what are you basing your judgement? Do you take as a given, the fact that your own culture is superior to all others and so you are best placed to judge others? Is there a league of cultures with some at the top and others below and if so where is your culture? Can you even objectively judge your own culture ?

Well I guess MY own personal criteria of judgement would be some variation of Humanism but one that is open to and respects the religious rights of others. Like I understand certain cultures have "rights of passage" for boys growing to men, girls growing to women, and as long as those rituals are not creating sociopaths or forcing a culture on unwilling participants I'm fine with them. I don't judge my culture as the absolute greatest, I certainly view it as more humane than others though. I can certainly objectively judge American culture, there are some points which I think aren't too good, you can look at the way American veterans are treated (or not) by hospitals, gang violence, drug problems, past issues of slavery/segregation, Urban Renewal/creating dependence on the government, abortion, there's certainly no lack of moral issues in the United States or in the West but a lot of those issues can be put under the hashtag of #firstworldproblems. I've said before and I stand by it NO CULTURE IS PERFECT...but some ARE better than others.

Is your own culture Judeo/Christian or Secular? Does your own countries experiences with France and Algerias have any bearing on your judgment of Algerian culture ? Have you even been there or talked to Algerians or are you basing all of this on one clip and some googling?

I consider myself Christian but I do not force my belief in deity on anyone that is between them and God and it is my belief that everyone must find their own path to enlightenment. France helped the United States in our Revolutionary War and we are good allies, Algeria on the other hand held our sailors for ransom and enslaved them in the 18th century but we eventually reached a truce and eventually became friendly. This was difficult during the Colonial Period when Algeria fought France for Independence as we were caught between the two. Algeria then started to not like us because of the Arab-Israeli War because we sided with Israel....it's a long complicated thing which has damn near nothing to do with spousal abuse.

Are there no wife beatings in your own culture ? or do they not affect the rating or position of your culture ?

Wife beating is frowned upon in the United States...and it's illegal. Did it USED to be a problem, yeah sure, and to a far lesser extent sure there is still SOME spousal abuse happening now, but I'd like to believe that with the options available to women it's a lot less likely you'll be walloped by your husband in the US than in Tunisia where women apparently still accept it with a smile on their face.....did you not find that the slightest bit odd

Does the fact that Algeria has passed a law against domestic violence and sexual harassment in 2016 represent a real chance of it moving up the league table and having a chance to compete against your own culture?

I'd hope that all cultures are TRYING to improve and yeah it would be a step in the right direction.

Can you judge an entire culture on one element of behavior ?

No, but you certainly can pick out the problem areas.

Are you judging as a culture a country, a religion, a region, a sect, an individual?

Culture - Culture consists of the beliefs, behaviors, objects, and other characteristics common to the members of a particular group or society. Through culture, people and groups define themselves, conform to society's shared values, and contribute to society. If that helps, that is what I'm looking at.

[El Kabong]

Do you consider feminism and women's right as worse than cancer or a case in point to prove one culture as superior to another ?

I think Feminism and Women's Rights have been co-opted by Cultural Marxists who wish to impose a different set of norms and values on American society. I believe the whole "Feminism is cancer" battle cry is an ironic bit of hyperbole (it's ironic because they tend to be hyperbolic and so when it's used against them boom irony).

when you talk about Algeria are you talking about Phonecian culture? Roman Culture? French Culture? or are all of these completely distinct and different from Algerian culture?
Are you actually taking about Algerian culture?

That clip....Islam....I'm talking about Islamic culture it's in the Quran "Men have authority over women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand" An-Nisa 34

Are those within Algeria who find the same things as you repugnant to be dismissed as not being Algerian because they do not fit into your description?

Cultures are not 100% geopolitical my friend...you should know what with being in England and all...Irish, Scottish, Welsh, hell even your north and south are a bit different.

Can you seriously suggest that cultures themselves are quantifiable and if so who can really stand objectively outside of their own culture and do so ?

Alright, explain to me when it would acceptable to beat your wife. If you can, then bravo to you for proving me wrong.

Would you consider the hundreds of thousands of Algerians killed by the French as an acceptable price to pay in order to better their culture?

Only the Algerians died then?

Is that price still worth paying if they refuse to convert?

....so ONLY the Algerians died

Are the freedoms of your own culture worth so much that they should be imposed on any other culture whatever the cost and even if they do not want them?

Nope, never said that, you have it quite the wrong way around. Why should THAT culture be accepted in America? Do we need to go back to the days of good old wife beating ?

[ryanman]

So a grown up discussion

That's where you went wrong B Man.

[ryanman]

Honestly can't believe you boys are still knocking these same arguments around.

Without reading I know who has said what. The funny thing is Beanz, Gandalf, Lyle might argue but all come from a place of decency and respect. Walrus too if he is still here (although he is a total wind-up that will say anything to poke the bear). Lyle has the polar opposite of my political views yet I've always had nothing but respect for him. He has logic and compassion. Even though he is a Republican cunt () . My point being that opposing views are no problem. The problem is, and always was, anti-intellectualism. Hence why I can't take much of a part here anymore. It's a caricature of what it was.

[ryanman]

Can we all agree that this is an amazing song?

[ryanman]

No offence to anti-zionists meant.

[Gandalf]

Honestly can't believe you boys are still knocking these same arguments around.

Without reading I know who has said what. The funny thing is Beanz, Gandalf, Lyle might argue but all come from a place of decency and respect. Walrus too if he is still here (although he is a total wind-up that will say anything to poke the bear). Lyle has the polar opposite of my political views yet I've always had nothing but respect for him. He has logic and compassion. Even though he is a Republican cunt () . My point being that opposing views are no problem. The problem is, and always was, anti-intellectualism. Hence why I can't take much of a part here anymore. It's a caricature of what it was.

It's a topic I mostly stayed out of until later on, but did join in to say that there are aspects of Asian cultures I find superior to my own. However, in saying that there are aspects that disgust me, but I think issues of corruption, cronyism, and dumb jingoism are just as prevalent back home too so I couldn't call that any better or worse. One thing that is definitely worse here is the driving. People don't indicate and if you do indicate they don't let you in. Another is the nonsense concept of face. When you are out of order you should say sorry, but people refuse to lose face, especially older people mired most heavily in corruption or deceit of some kind. I end up having to take legal action against them and the argument that 'this is how we do it here' dissipates in the face of legality which proves that it isn't really the culture at all. Bow to everyone. Nope, never have, never will. Same back home though, Memphis refuses to apologise. I don't see any need to intellectualise what for me at least is an experiential reflection on having lived in two very distinctly different cultures.

[TitoFan]

Honestly can't believe you boys are still knocking these same arguments around.

Without reading I know who has said what. The funny thing is Beanz, Gandalf, Lyle might argue but all come from a place of decency and respect. Walrus too if he is still here (although he is a total wind-up that will say anything to poke the bear). Lyle has the polar opposite of my political views yet I've always had nothing but respect for him. He has logic and compassion. Even though he is a Republican cunt () . My point being that opposing views are no problem. The problem is, and always was, anti-intellectualism. Hence why I can't take much of a part here anymore. It's a caricature of what it was.

It's a topic I mostly stayed out of until later on, but did join in to say that there are aspects of Asian cultures I find superior to my own. However, in saying that there are aspects that disgust me, but I think issues of corruption, cronyism, and dumb jingoism are just as prevalent back home too so I couldn't call that any better or worse. One thing that is definitely worse here is the driving. People don't indicate and if you do indicate they don't let you in. Another is the nonsense concept of face. When you are out of order you should say sorry, but people refuse to lose face, especially older people mired most heavily in corruption or deceit of some kind. I end up having to take legal action against them and the argument that 'this is how we do it here' dissipates in the face of legality which proves that it isn't really the culture at all. Bow to everyone. Nope, never have, never will. Same back home though, Memphis refuses to apologise. I don't see any need to intellectualise what for me at least is an experiential reflection on having lived in two very distinctly different cultures.

I think what ryanman is saying in a roundabout way is that I'm right, and everybody else is wrong.

[ryanman]

Honestly can't believe you boys are still knocking these same arguments around.

Without reading I know who has said what. The funny thing is Beanz, Gandalf, Lyle might argue but all come from a place of decency and respect. Walrus too if he is still here (although he is a total wind-up that will say anything to poke the bear). Lyle has the polar opposite of my political views yet I've always had nothing but respect for him. He has logic and compassion. Even though he is a Republican cunt () . My point being that opposing views are no problem. The problem is, and always was, anti-intellectualism. Hence why I can't take much of a part here anymore. It's a caricature of what it was.

It's a topic I mostly stayed out of until later on, but did join in to say that there are aspects of Asian cultures I find superior to my own. However, in saying that there are aspects that disgust me, but I think issues of corruption, cronyism, and dumb jingoism are just as prevalent back home too so I couldn't call that any better or worse. One thing that is definitely worse here is the driving. People don't indicate and if you do indicate they don't let you in. Another is the nonsense concept of face. When you are out of order you should say sorry, but people refuse to lose face, especially older people mired most heavily in corruption or deceit of some kind. I end up having to take legal action against them and the argument that 'this is how we do it here' dissipates in the face of legality which proves that it isn't really the culture at all. Bow to everyone. Nope, never have, never will. Same back home though, Memphis refuses to apologise. I don't see any need to intellectualise what for me at least is an experiential reflection on having lived in two very distinctly different cultures.

You've encapsulated my thoughts there Miles. You're a pragmatist. Of course there are aspects of cultures that are bad. Yes, cultures are different, there are strengths and weaknesses, I just can't stand hyperbole and dogma and it seems that's what this site has become.