Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

[TitoFan]

Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.

Arroyo was no slouch either, having previously only lost a close SD to Amnat Ruenroeng in his home turf in Thailand. Ruenroeng has since lost his title, but Arroyo provided Gonzalez a pretty stiff test.

[Fenster]

Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.

Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.

Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.

not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.

I have no doubt Brook would have been stopped, i don't even think he won three rounds.

Master named a bunch of middleweights Golovkin walloped who are "better names" than Brook. Not only is that stupid, as Brook is more high profile than them, but also stupid because Brook did better against Golovkin than all.

Thickos on here act like everything that happens is a first for boxing. Welterweights have been challenging middleweights since boxing began, the brilliant smaller man challenging the brilliant bigger man are among the most famous in history. It's the very fact that Brook is a top drawer proven world-class welterweight, far superior to those decent world-level middleweights, that he could hold his own for a while. The same Brook that fought Golovkin would have smashed Daniel Geale to bits.

[Alpha]

Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.

Arroyo was no slouch either, having previously only lost a close SD to Amnat Ruenroeng in his home turf in Thailand. Ruenroeng has since lost his title, but Arroyo provided Gonzalez a pretty stiff test.

Totally. I was just naming off the top of my head. There are many others also. Calderon was never really a possibility but I would have liked to see him face Nietes.

[Gandalf]

I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?

I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.

Floyd didn't used to throw 100 punches a round, and he didn't do bad.

He was much better when young and to be fair had good movement and defence later. Calzaghe would have windmilled him. Both different levels to plod Kov and clingy Ward. Easy for Calzaghe and Floyd.

[Gandalf]

I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?

I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.

No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.

Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?

Unbeatable really. A machine like no other. Only his hands could stop him and they helped him to evolve perfection.

[Primo Carnera]

Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.

Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.

Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.

not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.

I have no doubt Brook would have been stopped, i don't even think he won three rounds.

Master named a bunch of middleweights Golovkin walloped who are "better names" than Brook. Not only is that stupid, as Brook is more high profile than them, but also stupid because Brook did better against Golovkin than all.

Thickos on here act like everything that happens is a first for boxing. Welterweights have been challenging middleweights since boxing began, the brilliant smaller man challenging the brilliant bigger man are among the most famous in history. It's the very fact that Brook is a top drawer proven world-class welterweight, far superior to those decent world-level middleweights, that he could hold his own for a while. The same Brook that fought Golovkin would have smashed Daniel Geale to bits.

I agree what you're saying about Brook and I don't think he won 3 rounds, but he showed bags more heart and cojones than Murray et al. And just because somebody like Murray lasts more rounds where he adopts a high guard and doesn't really have a go, it doesn't mean he did better than Brook, because Brook had a proper go.
But on the other side of the coin , the weights are there for a reason, and as time goes on in a fight, the heavier man would have the advantage. Although Brook is an exceptionality big WW.

[Fenster]

His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.

That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.

That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.

"Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.

What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.

In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.

[Fenster]

Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.

Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.

Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.

That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.

What's that got to do with anything?

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about what happened in the Brook-GGG fight.

However, anyone that thinks GGG let Brook hit him on purpose is a div. And even if the punches didn't have an effect (claimed by idiots that weren't taking them - lol, couldn't make it up) they cost him two rounds on the judges cards. That's two rounds MORE than the five middleweights you mentioned could manage to win between them.

[Alpha]

His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.

That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.

That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.

"Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.

What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.

In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.

So Matthysse was shot now? I'm sure he was the fav going in? The fight with Crawford was a unification and they were considered the 2 best in the division. Sure the division may have been weak according to you but 126 wasn't much better. Crawford has been considered the lineal champ at both 135 and 140. Garcia holds a win over the guy that beat Loma and beat the other guy (Martinez) who you rate as one of Loma's best 3. He was also considered lineal at 126. Probably would have been at 130 as well had he not had the layoff. You said you have him clear at #1. That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. I'm just listing reasons as to why I would rate other fighters ahead of him. The cool thing is we have all these fighters that we can include in the debate and many of them are challenging themselves. Ward & Kov are set to go at it again. Crawford is taking on Diaz. Gonzalez will potentially rematch Cuardas or Wangek. Garcia looks on a collision course with Linares. Good times ahead.

[powerpuncher]

I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?

I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.

No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.

Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?

Unbeatable really. A machine like no other. Only his hands could stop him and they helped him to evolve perfection.

I have no response

[Gandalf]

I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?

I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.

No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.

Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?

Unbeatable really. A machine like no other. Only his hands could stop him and they helped him to evolve perfection.

I have no response

All of his opponents seemed that way too.

BTW, I think Lomachenko is easily the best fighter out there too. He has that Calzaghe brilliance to him. His one loss happened because he was fighting champions so early. Most fighters build up to a tough 12 rounder. He has it figured now.

[Alpha]

I thought Reid beat Calzaghe.

[powerpuncher]

Calzaghe was not a brilliant fighter. He was good for sure but not brilliant if you are comparing him to Loma. Loma is very technically sound. He is a good defensive fighter with good offensive instincts. He also was amazing footwork which is probably his best attribute.

Calzaghe just jumped in and threw a ton of punches. He had great stamina but his punches were more pitty Pat punches and his footwork and defense weren't particularly great.

Even if you think that calzaghe was one of the best, brilliant doesn't describe his fighting style. That would be more comparable to saying that Chavez was a brilliant fighter.

And ward would at least 9 rounds against calzaghe. Probably more but at least 9.

[Nameless]

The guy has dazzling reflexes and speed and the hell of a footwork. I don't know if he deserves the P4P but I think that it's not scandalous to think that he does deserve it. As long as he's in the top 3 P4P at the moment, I think that it could be considered fair enough.

[Gandalf]

I thought Reid beat Calzaghe.

A broken hand will make a fight closer, but think Calzaghe edged that. Maidana beat Mayweather on an off night too, these things happen. Reid is obviously not on a Calzaghe level.