Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

[Gandalf]

Calzaghe was not a brilliant fighter. He was good for sure but not brilliant if you are comparing him to Loma. Loma is very technically sound. He is a good defensive fighter with good offensive instincts. He also was amazing footwork which is probably his best attribute.

Calzaghe just jumped in and threw a ton of punches. He had great stamina but his punches were more pitty Pat punches and his footwork and defense weren't particularly great.

Even if you think that calzaghe was one of the best, brilliant doesn't describe his fighting style. That would be more comparable to saying that Chavez was a brilliant fighter.

And ward would at least 9 rounds against calzaghe. Probably more but at least 9.

He was an extraordinary fighter, with a unique style. Sure he could be sloppy, sure he didn't hit the hardest, but how are you going to take rounds off him on a consistent enough basis to win a 12 round fight? Impossible. It isn't ballet, you don't win the fight based on the grace of your hook, or the snazzy way you roll after a punch, it's about hitting that man again and again and making sure he cannot land as much on you. Andre Ward with his 30 punches a round would be dazzled by Calzaghe. Ward is very limited. Calzaghe wouldn't give him the chance to breathe. Ward would make it ugly, but Calzaghe would be on him like a mental mosquito again and again and again. Ward struggled against a plodder in his last fight, put him in with someone with output, speed and intelligence and you will see him undone.

[powerpuncher]

Calzaghe was not a brilliant fighter. He was good for sure but not brilliant if you are comparing him to Loma. Loma is very technically sound. He is a good defensive fighter with good offensive instincts. He also was amazing footwork which is probably his best attribute.

Calzaghe just jumped in and threw a ton of punches. He had great stamina but his punches were more pitty Pat punches and his footwork and defense weren't particularly great.

Even if you think that calzaghe was one of the best, brilliant doesn't describe his fighting style. That would be more comparable to saying that Chavez was a brilliant fighter.

And ward would at least 9 rounds against calzaghe. Probably more but at least 9.

He was an extraordinary fighter, with a unique style. Sure he could be sloppy, sure he didn't hit the hardest, but how are you going to take rounds off him on a consistent enough basis to win a 12 round fight? Impossible. It isn't ballet, you don't win the fight based on the grace of your hook, or the snazzy way you roll after a punch, it's about hitting that man again and again and making sure he cannot land as much on you. Andre Ward with his 30 punches a round would be dazzled by Calzaghe. Ward is very limited. Calzaghe wouldn't give him the chance to breathe. Ward would make it ugly, but Calzaghe would be on him like a mental mosquito again and again and again. Ward struggled against a plodder in his last fight, put him in with someone with output, speed and intelligence and you will see him undone.

Ward is one of the top talents in the sport in the last 20 years. He did himself a disservice by not fighting for so long but he absolutely dominated a stacked 168 division. And for the record, did it much more impressively than calzaghe. You are far underrating ward and far overrating calzaghe.

I just can't take somebody seriously who says that Ward is a limited fighter.

And for the record, calzaghe would have ran into a huge shot from kovalev eventually and been put out. His defense wasn't good enough and kovalev has fight ending power.

[Gandalf]

Nah, you are high on limitation. It happens when a division becomes hollow and lacks a superstar high output, intelligent, speedy southpaw. Kovalev couldn't keep up with Calzaghe. He's too predictable. Calzaghe would likely be put down early but he would win 10 rounds with Kovalev screaming into the air wondering where the windmill is coming from. It would be glorious. Calzaghe wouldn't be huffing and puffing like Kov was against Ward. That was against a guy who throws 30 punches a round and grapples to kill time! Ward is not that highly skilled. James Toney was highly skilled. Hopkins was highly skilled. Ward? Nah, he will never have the same plaudits. He just has quick hands and a way with the head. He lost against Kovalev already, but he is more intelligent and that might help him in the rematch.

Calzaghe was impeccable, especially from 30 until 36. He refined his art like few others have. He became the most tricky unbeatable fighter of all time. I love James Toney but he didn't have the same intelligence. Calzaghe ALWAYS found a way and he didn't cheat like Ward against Kessler etc. You cannot beat a fighter with a chin who will always throw and land more. After 12 he always has your number and most likely made you look silly.

[Gandalf]

You look at Wards record and it's basically Calzaghe leftovers. Oh, and Froch who has been outboxed by plenty of fighters and Abraham who has too. There is nothing in there to even compare with a Calzaghe. Nothing. It's nothing spectacular. Then in recent years who has he been fighting?

Then Kovalev too. Look at the resume. It is pretty hollow. Cleverly was the big one, but since it has been a Hopkins a decade older than the one Calzaghe faced who now had no legs and a Pascal beaten by Froch years ago. Suddenly the power that can stop Pascal is going to trap Calzaghe like a deer in the headlights. It's unfathomable. Kovs power has vanished in recent fights. Couldn't even stop a Hopkins on his last legs. It is overrated.

Calzaghe was special, unique and though flawed had a will to win like no other. He didn't breathe heavy and stop throwing. He threw and threw and threw and his footwork was excellent. His combinations were unorthodox and unpredictable. You couldn't prepare for him as there was nothing like him. Kov versus Ward was a let down. It became plod against clinch.

Now James Toney has a resume! Look at that list of fighters. Better than Calzaghe, Ward and Kovs put together!

[Alpha]

I thought Reid beat Calzaghe.

A broken hand will make a fight closer, but think Calzaghe edged that. Maidana beat Mayweather on an off night too, these things happen. Reid is obviously not on a Calzaghe level.

I had it 114-113 Reid when I watched it. But yeah Calzaghe had the better career.

[Master]

Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.

Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.

Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.

That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.

What's that got to do with anything?

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about what happened in the Brook-GGG fight.

However, anyone that thinks GGG let Brook hit him on purpose is a div. And even if the punches didn't have an effect (claimed by idiots that weren't taking them - lol, couldn't make it up) they cost him two rounds on the judges cards. That's two rounds MORE than the five middleweights you mentioned could manage to win between them.

So now you are comparing Brook to the great welterweights that challenged middleweights when you conveniently forgeting the fact that he only got his shot at GGG because Eubank Jnr turned it down and they had no decent opponent left.

Triple G even said that Brook should stay at welterweight because his punches had no effect. I do not need to take them when I can see GGG smiling at Brook's effort.

Remind me again what weight Brook is campaigning in his next fight?

[Gandalf]

I thought Reid beat Calzaghe.

A broken hand will make a fight closer, but think Calzaghe edged that. Maidana beat Mayweather on an off night too, these things happen. Reid is obviously not on a Calzaghe level.

I had it 114-113 Reid when I watched it. But yeah Calzaghe had the better career.

That's fair enough. It was a close fight and on the whole one of Calzaghe's lesser performances. Calzaghe was excellent in those days too when focused, but with the hand injuries he refined himself into something really different. It could have ended his career and at times seemed to be getting there, but he evolved that style which is hard for any fighter to prepare for. Sometimes it has been leveled that Calzaghe's resume is lacking, but you can flip that quite easily and say 'Well look at Kovalev's. He's been knocking everyone out but there is nobody there that Calzaghe would have had the minimal amount of difficult handling'. I don't like it when people put Calzaghe down because he was awesome and not only that but really gave his money's worth. I sometimes look at fighters filling out rounds or throwing a minimal amount and you never saw that with Calzaghe. Most of his fights are really exciting and when he stepped up he dazzled almost every time. Even at his sloppiest like against Mitchell it was FOTY material. Even in a gritty fight like against spoiler Hopkins he still massively outlanded him landing 232 punches as compared with Kovalev's 166. That was against a really brittle looking BHop and 38 came in the final round so it was something like 10 punches landed a round for 11 rounds. It's dismal really. Yet Kovalev is rated so highly by some, as is Ward who made his name off of Calzaghe leftovers. I rated Kov highly too and thought he was maybe just having an off day against Chilemba and took a breather against Hop, but he really seems to have forgotten how to put people away. He struggles after 6 and he hasn't even thrown a lot of punches. People suggest that Kovalev would stop Calzaghe or Ward would be too 'gifted' and it's absurd really. People are high on these fighters and forget just how good Calzaghe was. Ward and Kovalez are good, but they are no legends like Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Toney.

[Alpha]

I thought Reid beat Calzaghe.

A broken hand will make a fight closer, but think Calzaghe edged that. Maidana beat Mayweather on an off night too, these things happen. Reid is obviously not on a Calzaghe level.

I had it 114-113 Reid when I watched it. But yeah Calzaghe had the better career.

That's fair enough. It was a close fight and on the whole one of Calzaghe's lesser performances. Calzaghe was excellent in those days too when focused, but with the hand injuries he refined himself into something really different. It could have ended his career and at times seemed to be getting there, but he evolved that style which is hard for any fighter to prepare for. Sometimes it has been leveled that Calzaghe's resume is lacking, but you can flip that quite easily and say 'Well look at Kovalev's. He's been knocking everyone out but there is nobody there that Calzaghe would have had the minimal amount of difficult handling'. I don't like it when people put Calzaghe down because he was awesome and not only that but really gave his money's worth. I sometimes look at fighters filling out rounds or throwing a minimal amount and you never saw that with Calzaghe. Most of his fights are really exciting and when he stepped up he dazzled almost every time. Even at his sloppiest like against Mitchell it was FOTY material. Even in a gritty fight like against spoiler Hopkins he still massively outlanded him landing 232 punches as compared with Kovalev's 166. That was against a really brittle looking BHop and 38 came in the final round so it was something like 10 punches landed a round for 11 rounds. It's dismal really. Yet Kovalev is rated so highly by some, as is Ward who made his name off of Calzaghe leftovers. I rated Kov highly too and thought he was maybe just having an off day against Chilemba and took a breather against Hop, but he really seems to have forgotten how to put people away. He struggles after 6 and he hasn't even thrown a lot of punches. People suggest that Kovalev would stop Calzaghe or Ward would be too 'gifted' and it's absurd really. People are high on these fighters and forget just how good Calzaghe was. Ward and Kovalez are good, but they are no legends like Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Toney.

Nice post. Totally agree. I feel bad for Reid. He was robbed against Ottke.

[Gandalf]

Reid had a good career. Calzaghe greatness aside I think Lomachenko is the best fighter in the world. He has variety, all the punches, and most importantly has output. You cannot be considered the best throwing 30 punches a round, you have to double or triple it. Aim for the sky with volume. It's what I like. James Toney comeback life is good.

[powerpuncher]

So you give calzaghe a pass for a broken hand against Reid? What about when ward still dominated froch with a broken hand?

Calzaghe wouldn't be throwing 100 punches a round against ward. Ward slows people down. It's like what mayweather does. He lowers his opponents output by a lot. And the difference is that calzaghe isn't a come forward brawler who just walks through punches. He doesn't just walk through punches. He has gotten hurt multiple times throughout his career.

I don't mind you thinking that calzaghe is great, but he best win by far was hopkins which was close. Other than that, he didn't beat anybody that good. I was never that impressed with him.

And once again, ward is an elite fighter in any era. He is potentially the best p4p fighter in the world right now. If he beats kovalev convincingly this time around, he should be undisputed #1. Nobody ever even considered calzaghe near that good when he was fighting other than a few fans from Wales.

[Gandalf]

So you give calzaghe a pass for a broken hand against Reid? What about when ward still dominated froch with a broken hand?

Calzaghe wouldn't be throwing 100 punches a round against ward. Ward slows people down. It's like what mayweather does. He lowers his opponents output by a lot. And the difference is that calzaghe isn't a come forward brawler who just walks through punches. He doesn't just walk through punches. He has gotten hurt multiple times throughout his career.

I don't mind you thinking that calzaghe is great, but he best win by far was hopkins which was close. Other than that, he didn't beat anybody that good. I was never that impressed with him.

And once again, ward is an elite fighter in any era. He is potentially the best p4p fighter in the world right now. If he beats kovalev convincingly this time around, he should be undisputed #1. Nobody ever even considered calzaghe near that good when he was fighting other than a few fans from Wales.

I don't give him a pass as I think he won a close fight. I also think Calzaghe would have shut out Froch 12 to nothing and do it much more impressively than Andre Ward did. Calzaghe wouldn't be throwing a 100 punches a round, no. It would be because Ward would be clinching as he always does. However, Calzaghe is just as quick as Ward and can maintain what he does better. Every round would see Ward outlanded, increasingly bloodied and frustrated. Ward doesn't have the power to put Calzaghe down so the notion of him being hurt is a silly one. Calzaghe got put down early, shook it off, and came back like a demon everytime. Ward doesn't have a punch. Ward and Kovalev have shallow records and both have been fighting non elite fighters lately, so the notion that these two 30-40 punch a round guys are the cream of the cream is a funny one to me. Lomachenko is much, much better.

[Gandalf]

Ward has beaten more names, but a few are Calzaghe leftovers and others like Abraham and Froch have all easily been outboxed by others. It's not spectacular. His best win was Kessler, but he did it by headbutt in a display that should have seen him disqualified.

[powerpuncher]

It's not even a debate. Ward has a better resume than calzaghe. Don't act like froch was nothing. He was known as a really good fighter. He had success before and after ward. In fact, froch has a better resume than calzaghe. It has always been known that calzaghe didn't fight anybody great. That's why it wasn't until he beat Hopkins that he become legit because he beat a good fighter. Kessler was his other good win. He really didn't have any other good wins other than that. A few decent ones but that's it.

[Gandalf]

Froch was never a truly elite fighter. For years people have bemoaned his amateurish mistakes, how he left his chin open, his lack of output, how opponents would outbox him. Taylor did it, Kessler did it, Ward did it, Groves did it. Quite the list. You never saw Calzaghe being outboxed for large chunks of a fight. He beat Kessler far more cleanly and sublimely than either Froch or Ward could manage. Only in YOUR eyes did Calzaghe become legit after Hopkins because you obviously weren't paying attention.

Ward has a resume that is basically Calzaghe victims in Kessler and Bika. Then there is Froch and Abraham who had serious limitations at the top. Oh, and Chad Dawson who gets KO'ed in every fight now. Says something when even Andre Ward manages to get a stoppage.

Then since then who has he fought? Then he gets a gift after throwing 25 punches a round against Kovalev. The idea that he would be a problem for Calzaghe makes me laugh. No power, no output, just a head and some quick hands and the Americans think he is the best thing since sliced bread. Bwahaha! Plus Ward has never been in an entertaining fight. At least Hopkins only resorted to these tactics as a very old man. What's Wards excuse?

[Gandalf]

The good thing about Froch though was that he did fight everyone he could despite those limitations. Sometimes he won, sometimes he lost. The difference in skill level between Froch and Calzaghe was tremendous though. Calzaghe was sublime with handspeed, output, good footwork, southpaw stance and underrated defence. His offense was his defence and he had a chin with it. Froch was good but again very limited with his output and combinations. Calzaghe was a different level to any of that. Ward still laboured towards the end against someone with no technique. Jones Jr and Hopkins were far superior to Ward in their prime.