Lennox Lewis - The gloss

[Memphis]

The Oliver McCall thread got me thinking about this, or refreshed it in my mind. But how much of a career pass does Lewis get for the McCall and Rahman fights.

Lewis is a better fighter than both, lets get that straight, but he's 1-1 with both men, the return with McCall he won, but he didn't beat him. McCall and Rahman both get glossed over when talking about Lewis's record 'defeated every man he's ever faced'. The truth of it is he never actually established superiority over either in the ring.

Lewis is a great fighter no doubting that and this thread isn't an effort to knock that. But I do think it's a very grey area and Lewis is the beneficiary of some rose tinted examination.

[ruthless rocco]

Lennox won every round in the rematch against Rahman, and scored a brutal KO in the 4th. What do you mean he never established superiority?

[Master]

Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.

McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.

Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.

[X]

I do think people forget the criticism Lewis faced while he was actually active. People said he was a magnificent athlete but not a natural fighter, they said his technique was flawed (and it was), they said he was boring in the ring, they said he didn't take risks and avoided dangerous guys, they said he was gun shy and chinny

There has definitely been some post career revisionism about Lewis, as he is now seen as an all time great and a destroyer.

As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere in between!

[Memphis]

Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.

McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.

Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.

This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.

McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.

[Mark TKO]

I've not watched for a few years so will watch tonight and come back but I remember thinking the ref should have maybe given Lewis the chance to continue. He was on shakey legs but boxers in worse condition have been allowed to continue!

[Master]

Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.

McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.

Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.

This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.

McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.

I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".

You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.

[Memphis]

Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.

McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.

Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.

This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.

McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.

I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".

You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.

I'm not blaming him for anything Master, I'm not trying to do him down in any way shape or form. It's just a subject I find quite interesting especially now that we have a leading pack of heavyweights in AJ Wilder and Fury, and every Tom Dick or Harry cant help but compare them to the last great pack of heavyweights and of course, they wouldn't stand a chance. As you can imagine I think that's bollocks.

The narrative for Rahman 1 could be rounded up nicely into a 'Lewis was completely unprofessional' ball. I think he turned up with a few days to spare didn't he to acclimatise? By the same logic that says Lewis can't be held responsible for McCall's unravelling in fight 2, Rahman isn't to blame for Lewis not giving the fight the attention it deserved. Also by the same token, if we're all supposed to tow the party line that Lewis meant business in fight two and that's the true fight right there, then surely the same luxury should be afforded to McCall and the one true fight that stands is the one i which he knocked Lewis the fuck out.

Lewis is a universally recognised great fighter and nailed on top 5/10 heavyweight of all times. I just think there are some issues in his career that are papered over with two identical statements that aren't necessarily accurate and certainly not fair to the other fighters. Given that he is now a yardstick by which to measure contemporary fighters, I think it's worth noting and discussing his shortcomings.

[Memphis]

Lennox won every round in the rematch against Rahman, and scored a brutal KO in the 4th. What do you mean he never established superiority?

No doubting that, but he got pretty brutally knocked out himself in the first fight. Therefor they're one a piece. There was no real conclusion to Lewis V Rahman only that Lewis won the second fight and from there the consensus was/is that was the proper result. It's a bit unfair on Rahman I think and I cant stand the cunt.

[TitoFan]

Lennox won every round in the rematch against Rahman, and scored a brutal KO in the 4th. What do you mean he never established superiority?

No doubting that, but he got pretty brutally knocked out himself in the first fight. Therefor they're one a piece. There was no real conclusion to Lewis V Rahman only that Lewis won the second fight and from there the consensus was/is that was the proper result. It's a bit unfair on Rahman I think and I cant stand the cunt.

Caught off guard..... didn't train properly..... unmotivated.... lazy..... all of those have been used to describe Lewis' effort against Rahman.

Going into the rematch, Rahman could not claim the same (being caught off guard). If anything, they were both totally motivated by the grudge that developed between the two fights.

So saying it's 1-1 and leaving it at that is what REALLY defines glossing it over for me. All things considered, I'd rather be Lewis.

[Fenster]

I don't blame Lewis for swerving a rubber match with McCall, I was terrified for him after watching that mental Avenger get blasted with flush right hands, basically sucker punches, which had zero effect. Lewis did well to not jump through the ropes and leg it.

And technically Rhaman is 2-1 over Lewis, he definitely got the better of him in the studio scuffle. Rock had him on his back, could have easily nutted or forearmed him unconcious if he wasn't dragged off.

[Kirkland Laing]

Lennox won every round in the rematch against Rahman, and scored a brutal KO in the 4th. What do you mean he never established superiority?

I was going to post this too. That looks like establishing superiority to me. In the first fight with Rahman Lewis was blowing out of his arse after a couple of rounds. He hadn't taken it seriously and was caught out. McCall you can make a better case for. If he'd lived the life and not been taking whatever substances he would have been a formidable opponent in the rematch but Lewis trained by Manny Steward using his height and reach against the best possible McCall would have resulted in a boring Lewis points win.

You can criticise Lewis over his career for being boring and safety first but this is a guy who knew for almost every fight he had at world level that a. he could be knocked the fuck out and b. if he used his height/reach/feet to the best of his ability then he had the beating of anybody he got in the ring with so it's entirely understandable that he did what he did.

[Taeth]

Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.

McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.

Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.

This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.

McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.

I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".

You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.

I'm not blaming him for anything Master, I'm not trying to do him down in any way shape or form. It's just a subject I find quite interesting especially now that we have a leading pack of heavyweights in AJ Wilder and Fury, and every Tom Dick or Harry cant help but compare them to the last great pack of heavyweights and of course, they wouldn't stand a chance. As you can imagine I think that's bollocks.

The narrative for Rahman 1 could be rounded up nicely into a 'Lewis was completely unprofessional' ball. I think he turned up with a few days to spare didn't he to acclimatise? By the same logic that says Lewis can't be held responsible for McCall's unravelling in fight 2, Rahman isn't to blame for Lewis not giving the fight the attention it deserved. Also by the same token, if we're all supposed to tow the party line that Lewis meant business in fight two and that's the true fight right there, then surely the same luxury should be afforded to McCall and the one true fight that stands is the one i which he knocked Lewis the fuck out.

Lewis is a universally recognised great fighter and nailed on top 5/10 heavyweight of all times. I just think there are some issues in his career that are papered over with two identical statements that aren't necessarily accurate and certainly not fair to the other fighters. Given that he is now a yardstick by which to measure contemporary fighters, I think it's worth noting and discussing his shortcomings.

I feel like Lewis beat them much more decisively in the rematches. Can you tell me rahman, did to Lewis what Lewis did to him in the second fight? That was a completely outclassed fighter. McCall I was ended too soon, and it wasn’t like either of them had really established an advantage over each other in the first round. They were still in the early stages of figuring each other out.

[Spicoli]

I dunno, tons of intangibles and occurrences go into things like McCall falling off the ledge that night. What we know is he was under tons of pressure with the King title challenger last minute shuffle, was at highest weight, had already lost his title and acclaim in the exact same arena where he won it and more importantly had been throwing a balling ball size wad of coke up his nose. He sort of sabotaged his chance to 'to be in top form' like the 1st fight and that's completely on him. And I don't believe in lucky punches but..his eyes were closed . The best thing that happened to Lewis was the 1st being waved off and leaving him the "it was stopped early" argument. The condition he was in McCall was going to make the ko even more embarrassing than just one & done shot. Lewis got caught simple as that. Happens to the best but he surely showed that he can deal with better punches and leave the two 1 punch kos he suffered with asterisks next to them, and besides..they're always mentioned when he is. Always

[Dark Lord Al]

Lewis fought arrogant and with no respect for either rahman or McCall. That is why he lost those fights.