Wilder v Fury 2 - Las Vegas

[Ron Swanson]

UK fans, they do their part. But US fans are picky. They want their fights when they want them. To get BOTH markets we all know it must be in the USA to be at the time USA fight fans watch fights.

I do agree with this though, I think that the Brits are more inclined to pull an all nighter than the Yanks are to watch a full boxing card at 2pm, I don't think I'd get the same sort of buzz watching a full card at that time of day, plus it would clash with other sports, imagine how many viewers the boxing would lose if it clashed with the Premier League, even if it is only now and again.

They're more likely to stay up and watch but that's hardcore fans. The British PPV money is down to attracting casual fans in UK primetime. Only a small fraction of potential PPV viewers in the UK are going to stay up till five am to watch a fight. So you're not getting both markets when the fight is in America. What's happening here is that Haymon is putting up a massive guarantee to Fury to keep the fight in America and to give Wilder as much advantage as he can get him. Haymon may make the money back, he may not.

He’s giving massive guarantees to both because the money is there. The PPV will be 79.99 USD here, 20 euro there. We can’t be blind to the difference and act as if it is about advantages. It’s about money.

[Memphis]

Or thinking the biggest money fights cut out the American market. It’s nonsense haha

The money is in having BOTH markets. That is so f’n obvious. It sucks coming here and watching people tell each other fairy tales.

You all aren’t Eddie Hearn, be honest.

First things first Ron, no one forces you to come here, you choose to. I'm not quite sure why, I could hazard a guess, rank arrogance perhaps.

Secondly, no one at any point ever, not even once said the best way to make money was the cut off the American market, don't be so fucking dense.

The entire argument hinged on 'Would Joshua V Wilder make more money in the UK, or the US' That's what we were all debating right? With that in mind, answer the following, how much did Wilder and Fury earn (combined) then answer would AJ V Wilder in the UK have made more money.

When you're ready.

I appreciate your direct insult. It says much about you. Thanks for being so transparent for everyone.

To get to your attempt to spin. Yes, people have said the best way to get the most money is to cut out the American market when they say Fury vs AJ is the most profitable. Americans won’t buy that now. It may be the most profitable in the long run because if Fury Beats Wilder decisively they may buy the unification. That is both markets. But if they fought NOW Americans wouldn’t buy, 1 market, less money. So compare apples to apples. AJ vs Fury is not the biggest money maker NOW and those that suggested that are ignorant or dishonest. And it has been suggested so don’t try to say it hasn’t.

As for your question which is again apples vs oranges rather than apples vs apples, which by the way is a technique used by those attempting to deceive so again giving everyone more information about you, AJ vs Wilder in UK would have made more than Wilder vs Fury in USA. But Wilder would have made less because of the crap offer. Wilder and AJ both would have made most by fighting in the USA, BOTH markets. Don’t narrow options to make a point, that’s deceptive. Broaden it to extrapolate honest informative information. Oh, but honest information isn’t what you want apples to oranges. Looking at it broader you now see the rematch of Wilder vs Fury will make more than Eddie said even the bright star AJ vs Wilder would make in the UK. This is no fault of UK fans, they do their part. But US fans are picky. They want their fights when they want them. To get BOTH markets we all know it must be in the USA to be at the time USA fight fans watch fights. This is transparent apples to apples conversation. Try it. There is nothing arrogant about honesty.

Cheers

Transparent or honesty? Funny how they are interchangeable dependent on your position Ron. Go ahead and be insulted Ron, I think it's insulting for someone to constantly play the 'ughh this forum sucks' card but that's just me, I think I have more respect for this place than you do is all.

Cheers for the part in bold. that was an actual answer to the actual question posed to you. I don't care for all the other stuff about fruit. You can shift the goalposts and the time lines all you want, it changes nothing.

I’m not shifting the goalposts at all. This started from me people here saying Fury sold the fight with Wilder. People believing Eddies lies. Wilder has in fact and can be simply looked up brought great viewership in the USA. Fury has in fact not, he had his previous fight free fight available to all that brought less than 1/4 the viewership of Wilders previous fight that was only available to less than 15 million. To suggest the guy that doesn’t get the numbers suddenly got the numbers not the guy that always gets the numbers is preposterous. But it’s repeated here. There is a reason Wilder is suddenly going to get a huge and much larger payday than Fury, because of the facts. No matter what people repeat here that isn’t true.

You want to know why I insult this place often, read my last paragraph. You folks repeating nonsense has gotten worse and worse. Everyone in the industry recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. The world recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. But people on this site not only buy but repeat his nonsense over and over.

Just now you took one thing, turned it into another. Clearly accept that everything I said was true by not debating a word of it then act like I shifted the goalposts when I changed absolutely nothing about what I said ever. That’s BS. You wonder why I am annoyed with the current state of this place. Your crap post is a perfect example. Do better

You said nobody said eliminating one market makes more money. But people did say Fury vs AJ, Fury vs anyone in fact, is now the biggest fight. So either what you said is not true or you have some explaining because those things are mutually exclusive. So how can two contradictory things be true? Good luck explaining, I expect you to dodge

Ron, this was a simple question posed in response to your claim that

Or thinking the biggest money fights cut out the American market

So Lets clear it up shall we. Lets leave Wilder and AJ out of this for a moment. Yes, the biggest fights using whatever metric you care to mention take place on American soil, no one does or has ever disputed this. If you think they have you've once again misunderstood. We're speaking generally here though. Just because Mayweather Pacquiao made a gazillion dollars, it doesn't automatically mean that a Wilder/Fury/AJ fight makes more money in the States. Happy?

Given that this whole charade was surrounding the potential AJ Wilder fight lets bring them back into the picture. I believe you've misconstrued a simple premise. That being, that at the time lots of people (me being one of them) thought that the fight would make far more money in the UK than it would in the States. Given the money Wilder and Fury made, and given the money Joshua made for the Povetkin fight, those people would appear to have been proven right, no? Even if we use your own words and 'cut out the American market' those people were still right because if I remember rightly there was zero US TV money in the Povetkin fight.

You can keep spitting out this party line about 'Both Markets' all you like but it doesn't change a damned thing. Yes, if you have all of the American money and all of the UK money you will have.............the most money. Even if everyone here is as stupid as you think, a bit of basic maths is doable. It has been pointed out to you on umpteen occasions and you've had a little refresher a couple of posts back, getting top dollar from both revenue streams is impossible. People bemoan the 'casuals' for a pastime, but the casuals wont stay up until stupid o'clock and pay 20 quid for the privilege. They also wont stump up 80 dollars to watch a fight in the afternoon. It just can't happen.

Everyone in the industry recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. The world recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS

And I put words in your mouth?

[smashup]

Or thinking the biggest money fights cut out the American market. It’s nonsense haha

The money is in having BOTH markets. That is so f’n obvious. It sucks coming here and watching people tell each other fairy tales.

You all aren’t Eddie Hearn, be honest.

First things first Ron, no one forces you to come here, you choose to. I'm not quite sure why, I could hazard a guess, rank arrogance perhaps.

Secondly, no one at any point ever, not even once said the best way to make money was the cut off the American market, don't be so fucking dense.

The entire argument hinged on 'Would Joshua V Wilder make more money in the UK, or the US' That's what we were all debating right? With that in mind, answer the following, how much did Wilder and Fury earn (combined) then answer would AJ V Wilder in the UK have made more money.

When you're ready.

I appreciate your direct insult. It says much about you. Thanks for being so transparent for everyone.

To get to your attempt to spin. Yes, people have said the best way to get the most money is to cut out the American market when they say Fury vs AJ is the most profitable. Americans won’t buy that now. It may be the most profitable in the long run because if Fury Beats Wilder decisively they may buy the unification. That is both markets. But if they fought NOW Americans wouldn’t buy, 1 market, less money. So compare apples to apples. AJ vs Fury is not the biggest money maker NOW and those that suggested that are ignorant or dishonest. And it has been suggested so don’t try to say it hasn’t.

As for your question which is again apples vs oranges rather than apples vs apples, which by the way is a technique used by those attempting to deceive so again giving everyone more information about you, AJ vs Wilder in UK would have made more than Wilder vs Fury in USA. But Wilder would have made less because of the crap offer. Wilder and AJ both would have made most by fighting in the USA, BOTH markets. Don’t narrow options to make a point, that’s deceptive. Broaden it to extrapolate honest informative information. Oh, but honest information isn’t what you want apples to oranges. Looking at it broader you now see the rematch of Wilder vs Fury will make more than Eddie said even the bright star AJ vs Wilder would make in the UK. This is no fault of UK fans, they do their part. But US fans are picky. They want their fights when they want them. To get BOTH markets we all know it must be in the USA to be at the time USA fight fans watch fights. This is transparent apples to apples conversation. Try it. There is nothing arrogant about honesty.

Cheers

Transparent or honesty? Funny how they are interchangeable dependent on your position Ron. Go ahead and be insulted Ron, I think it's insulting for someone to constantly play the 'ughh this forum sucks' card but that's just me, I think I have more respect for this place than you do is all.

Cheers for the part in bold. that was an actual answer to the actual question posed to you. I don't care for all the other stuff about fruit. You can shift the goalposts and the time lines all you want, it changes nothing.

I’m not shifting the goalposts at all. This started from me people here saying Fury sold the fight with Wilder. People believing Eddies lies. Wilder has in fact and can be simply looked up brought great viewership in the USA. Fury has in fact not, he had his previous fight free fight available to all that brought less than 1/4 the viewership of Wilders previous fight that was only available to less than 15 million. To suggest the guy that doesn’t get the numbers suddenly got the numbers not the guy that always gets the numbers is preposterous. But it’s repeated here. There is a reason Wilder is suddenly going to get a huge and much larger payday than Fury, because of the facts. No matter what people repeat here that isn’t true.

You want to know why I insult this place often, read my last paragraph. You folks repeating nonsense has gotten worse and worse. Everyone in the industry recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. The world recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. But people on this site not only buy but repeat his nonsense over and over.

Just now you took one thing, turned it into another. Clearly accept that everything I said was true by not debating a word of it then act like I shifted the goalposts when I changed absolutely nothing about what I said ever. That’s BS. You wonder why I am annoyed with the current state of this place. Your crap post is a perfect example. Do better

You said nobody said eliminating one market makes more money. But people did say Fury vs AJ, Fury vs anyone in fact, is now the biggest fight. So either what you said is not true or you have some explaining because those things are mutually exclusive. So how can two contradictory things be true? Good luck explaining, I expect you to dodge

You giving up smoking Ron or is it time of the month? 🤔

I knew you would chime in with no facts because you’re one of the people saying the nonsense. Do you admit you said Fury brings the most money and thus prove that what he said in his initial post to me wasn’t true or do I have to go find you saying it?

I dont ever remember saying Fury brings the most money because he doesn't.
AJ is miles ahead of Fury and Wilder in terms of paydays.
Miles ahead.
If i did say that i was probably smashed on a weekend 😉
Shall we change your name to Mr Angry?
Chill out fella

We can relax. I’m comfortable with your response.

I am relaxed, you need to come to terms with the fact that the USA is nowhere near the dominant force it used to be in World boxing and that Eddie Hearn is the worlds best and most powerful promoter with the best stable of fighters to play with.

[Kirkland Laing]

UK fans, they do their part. But US fans are picky. They want their fights when they want them. To get BOTH markets we all know it must be in the USA to be at the time USA fight fans watch fights.

I do agree with this though, I think that the Brits are more inclined to pull an all nighter than the Yanks are to watch a full boxing card at 2pm, I don't think I'd get the same sort of buzz watching a full card at that time of day, plus it would clash with other sports, imagine how many viewers the boxing would lose if it clashed with the Premier League, even if it is only now and again.

They're more likely to stay up and watch but that's hardcore fans. The British PPV money is down to attracting casual fans in UK primetime. Only a small fraction of potential PPV viewers in the UK are going to stay up till five am to watch a fight. So you're not getting both markets when the fight is in America. What's happening here is that Haymon is putting up a massive guarantee to Fury to keep the fight in America and to give Wilder as much advantage as he can get him. Haymon may make the money back, he may not.

He’s giving massive guarantees to both because the money is there. The PPV will be 79.99 USD here, 20 euro there. We can’t be blind to the difference and act as if it is about advantages. It’s about money.

Nobody knows if the money is there. Haymon is gambling on the first fight creating a buzz that brings in casual boxing fans and sports fans in general. Let's take the promoters at their word about the last fight doing 325 000 buys. The calb ecompanies who supply the broadcast to the customers take a standard 55% of the purchase price and in some states there are various taxes. Let's forget the taxes and say the promotion makes all of the remaining 45% and the gate pays for the costs of the promotion with some left over. That means the PPV side of the first fight brought in fourteen million and change in profit (and I would guess less than twelve with the state taxes) and there was some gate money on top. Or maybe not, there are conflicting stories about how well the tickets sold and the stories saying they went well came from the promoters.

But fuck it, let's say twenty when you include global non UK TV and I'm being very generous here, they probably lost money on the gate and global non UK TV is normally no more than a million dollars total even for big fights, only a couple of Mayweather fights in recent years have broken that million dollar number. But then Showtime get their cut. They have to pay for the cost of producing the broadcast and then actually make something for doing it. They're going to take a cut of that PPV money. So the whole thing at best made less than Fury's guarantee this time even when you include the UK money. I can't remember whether it was PPV or they just got a licence fee but it wouldn't have been much.

Any way you look at it this next fight could be a gigantic loser for Haymon but he's taking a gamble that the combination of these two fights could turn Wilder into a massive US earner. But he could also be wrong, couldn't he. The lads who run the casinos in Vegas are normally on the money with these things and they're not interested in the fight at all. It's ended up in NY which means a whole load of state taxes for everybody to pay on any profit they do make and no gate guarantee/site fee. In fact the NY location would indicate that they're making it easy for a big Brit contingent to turn up and actually pay money for the tickets. So we'll see how it works out, but unless there's a huge increase in interest in this second fight it's going to be a huge money loser for Haymon.

[Master]

So why is AJ fighting in New York and not Vegas?

[Primo Carnera]

Or thinking the biggest money fights cut out the American market. It’s nonsense haha

The money is in having BOTH markets. That is so f’n obvious. It sucks coming here and watching people tell each other fairy tales.

You all aren’t Eddie Hearn, be honest.

First things first Ron, no one forces you to come here, you choose to. I'm not quite sure why, I could hazard a guess, rank arrogance perhaps.

Secondly, no one at any point ever, not even once said the best way to make money was the cut off the American market, don't be so fucking dense.

The entire argument hinged on 'Would Joshua V Wilder make more money in the UK, or the US' That's what we were all debating right? With that in mind, answer the following, how much did Wilder and Fury earn (combined) then answer would AJ V Wilder in the UK have made more money.

When you're ready.

I appreciate your direct insult. It says much about you. Thanks for being so transparent for everyone.

To get to your attempt to spin. Yes, people have said the best way to get the most money is to cut out the American market when they say Fury vs AJ is the most profitable. Americans won’t buy that now. It may be the most profitable in the long run because if Fury Beats Wilder decisively they may buy the unification. That is both markets. But if they fought NOW Americans wouldn’t buy, 1 market, less money. So compare apples to apples. AJ vs Fury is not the biggest money maker NOW and those that suggested that are ignorant or dishonest. And it has been suggested so don’t try to say it hasn’t.

As for your question which is again apples vs oranges rather than apples vs apples, which by the way is a technique used by those attempting to deceive so again giving everyone more information about you, AJ vs Wilder in UK would have made more than Wilder vs Fury in USA. But Wilder would have made less because of the crap offer. Wilder and AJ both would have made most by fighting in the USA, BOTH markets. Don’t narrow options to make a point, that’s deceptive. Broaden it to extrapolate honest informative information. Oh, but honest information isn’t what you want apples to oranges. Looking at it broader you now see the rematch of Wilder vs Fury will make more than Eddie said even the bright star AJ vs Wilder would make in the UK. This is no fault of UK fans, they do their part. But US fans are picky. They want their fights when they want them. To get BOTH markets we all know it must be in the USA to be at the time USA fight fans watch fights. This is transparent apples to apples conversation. Try it. There is nothing arrogant about honesty.

Cheers

Transparent or honesty? Funny how they are interchangeable dependent on your position Ron. Go ahead and be insulted Ron, I think it's insulting for someone to constantly play the 'ughh this forum sucks' card but that's just me, I think I have more respect for this place than you do is all.

Cheers for the part in bold. that was an actual answer to the actual question posed to you. I don't care for all the other stuff about fruit. You can shift the goalposts and the time lines all you want, it changes nothing.

I’m not shifting the goalposts at all. This started from me people here saying Fury sold the fight with Wilder. People believing Eddies lies. Wilder has in fact and can be simply looked up brought great viewership in the USA. Fury has in fact not, he had his previous fight free fight available to all that brought less than 1/4 the viewership of Wilders previous fight that was only available to less than 15 million. To suggest the guy that doesn’t get the numbers suddenly got the numbers not the guy that always gets the numbers is preposterous. But it’s repeated here. There is a reason Wilder is suddenly going to get a huge and much larger payday than Fury, because of the facts. No matter what people repeat here that isn’t true.

You want to know why I insult this place often, read my last paragraph. You folks repeating nonsense has gotten worse and worse. Everyone in the industry recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. The world recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. But people on this site not only buy but repeat his nonsense over and over.

Just now you took one thing, turned it into another. Clearly accept that everything I said was true by not debating a word of it then act like I shifted the goalposts when I changed absolutely nothing about what I said ever. That’s BS. You wonder why I am annoyed with the current state of this place. Your crap post is a perfect example. Do better

You said nobody said eliminating one market makes more money. But people did say Fury vs AJ, Fury vs anyone in fact, is now the biggest fight. So either what you said is not true or you have some explaining because those things are mutually exclusive. So how can two contradictory things be true? Good luck explaining, I expect you to dodge

Ron, this was a simple question posed in response to your claim that

Or thinking the biggest money fights cut out the American market

So Lets clear it up shall we. Lets leave Wilder and AJ out of this for a moment. Yes, the biggest fights using whatever metric you care to mention take place on American soil, no one does or has ever disputed this. If you think they have you've once again misunderstood. We're speaking generally here though. Just because Mayweather Pacquiao made a gazillion dollars, it doesn't automatically mean that a Wilder/Fury/AJ fight makes more money in the States. Happy?

Given that this whole charade was surrounding the potential AJ Wilder fight lets bring them back into the picture. I believe you've misconstrued a simple premise. That being, that at the time lots of people (me being one of them) thought that the fight would make far more money in the UK than it would in the States. Given the money Wilder and Fury made, and given the money Joshua made for the Povetkin fight, those people would appear to have been proven right, no? Even if we use your own words and 'cut out the American market' those people were still right because if I remember rightly there was zero US TV money in the Povetkin fight.

You can keep spitting out this party line about 'Both Markets' all you like but it doesn't change a damned thing. Yes, if you have all of the American money and all of the UK money you will have.............the most money. Even if everyone here is as stupid as you think, a bit of basic maths is doable. It has been pointed out to you on umpteen occasions and you've had a little refresher a couple of posts back, getting top dollar from both revenue streams is impossible. People bemoan the 'casuals' for a pastime, but the casuals wont stay up until stupid o'clock and pay 20 quid for the privilege. They also wont stump up 80 dollars to watch a fight in the afternoon. It just can't happen.

Everyone in the industry recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS. The world recognizes Eddie Hearn is FOS

And I put words in your mouth?

@Ron Swanson, we all know that Eddie Hearn can be a bit of a dickhead, but I remember when negotiations were ongoing saying at the time that we couldn’t know whose fault it was that the fight didn’t happen. But that eventually, the truth would come out.
Fast forward to Wilder’s statement after the Fury fight that in June , he had broken his arm. Yet we’re supposed to believe that Team Wilder are throwing around $50 Million offers while their fighter has a broken arm?
When this came out , I specifically remember asking you if you had any thoughts on this, but strangely you went quiet for a few weeks.
Care to offer your thoughts on this?

[Fenster]

So why is AJ fighting in New York and not Vegas?

Canelo-Jacobs is in Vegas a few weeks before (now factor in Kirk's post about Vegas).

Here's some more reasons.

1. Madison Square Garden is an iconic venue for boxing.
2. Miller is a New Yorker.
3. The timezone means British fans can watch live at 2.30-3am instead of 5-30am (that's more PPV sales).

[Primo Carnera]

So why is AJ fighting in New York and not Vegas?

Canelo-Jacobs is in Vegas a few weeks before (now factor in Kirk's post about Vegas).

Here's some more reasons.

1. Madison Square Garden is an iconic venue for boxing.
2. Miller is a New Yorker.
3. The timezone means British fans can watch live at 2.30-3am instead of 5-30am (that's more PPV sales).

not just a pretty face are Ya?

[Kirkland Laing]

So why is AJ fighting in New York and not Vegas?

It's a keep busy fight rather than an event like Wilder and Joshua's first fight in America so he's unknown outside of fight fans so it's not very attractive to Vegas. New York makes it easier for Brits to get to. I'm not sure why it isn't in Britain. Maybe Eddie doesn't think it will sell Wembley out but hasn't Joshua sold out stadiums against scrubs before? Maybe it's just that they have to bring him to America at some point and it makes DAZN happy too to start building a profile in America. Probably those reasons, it makes all the parties behind Joshua happy because it helps build everybodys' brand.

[Fenster]

It's not at Wembley because Eddie perfectly groomed Miller for Joshua's American debut, it has been the plan since he signed him, not just to sell him to Americans but Brits.

Joshua breaks Madison Square Garden record for highest grossing pre-sale in arena history http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-41055627-4

[Spicoli]

It's not at Wembley because Eddie perfectly groomed Miller for Joshua's American debut, it has been the plan since he signed him, not just to sell him to Americans but Brits.

Joshua breaks Madison Square Garden record for highest grossing pre-sale in arena history http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-41055627-4

Agree it's been his plan to signing Miller. I think Hearn has almost stymied Miller as far as mass exposure and playing him up to his NY home crowd with Joshua getting the shine. As well as opposition Miller can grow from in prepping for AJ. Hearn can set the field and control the exteriors but Miller still gets to have a say when the bells rings. I'm not big on his chances but a unified hvy champ coming into the backyard of both Wilder and Miller at the historical venue is huge for the sport. Hard to have a problem with it, but I spose if someone looks hard enough they'll create one .

[Batman]

Fight is off apparently

[Memphis]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/bo...er-fights.html

[Memphis]

Fat Mick is in the fetal position somewhere crying.

[TitoFan]

Obviously I'm gonna wait until there's confirmation the rematch is off before I weigh in too much. So far I've only seen the supermarket tabloids from across the pond jockeying for who gets the most shocking headline. It's why I've never fancied the National Enquirer.

Presuming it IS true however..... I guess maybe we should begin changing our focus as fans of the sport of boxing. Who gives a damn about actual fights anyway? It's much better to focus on how much so-and-so makes..... how big a contract he landed..... who's avoiding whom...... who trash-talks better on the media..... and all the sordid details that in past nobody gave a flying one about. Here we had the perfect antidote to the heavyweight doldrums we had to suffer through during the Reign of Wlad. A rematch between two guys who gave us an entertaining, exciting heavyweight title fight. So if it doesn't happen, it gets scrapped into the "It Was Too Good To Be True" garbage bin.

Let's hope it's just a bunch of Fake News.