Golovkin v Steve Rolls

[Primo Carnera]

Three of Golovkins last four fights have been against Canelo and Jacobs. This money grabbing "ducker" narrative is silly. He specifically signed with DAZN to get a 3rd Canelo fight (plus they have the other belt holders), he's chasing his "legacy" as well as money, there's not a bigger middleweight match than those two.

I don't reckon he's ducked anyone, far from it. I just think he's made piss poor decisions waiting on and begging for Canelo . It's too easy to say "he couldn't have made the money he made fighting Canelo." but I see it different.
he spent so long waiting on Canelo that his career lost momentum. if he had gotten on with his own career, Canelo would've still had to resort to finding shitty catchweights and that pool was running dry , along with his credibility. if GGG continued winning, wiped out the division, gone up in weight, he could've been a big noise himself.
Instead , in the last 3 -4 years , he's fought 5 times , one of them was a defence against someone 2 weight divisions lower. in the 3-4 years before that he fought art least 10 times. I know he's getting older and won't fight as many times, but he spent too much time hanging off Canelo and GBP's Ball sack. it is what it is. He's no ducker, but he's MW ATG either. Ultimately , despite all the talk , it's your record and who you fight and who you beat and the titles you win that define your career.

Exactly! Which is precisely why Golovkin IS an all-time great (hall-of-fame cert). He dominated the middleweight division, spent years and years P4P rated, headlined massive shows all over the world and most importantly left his mark on the sport as a "must watch" brutal sparko machine, a "middleweight Tyson," a boxing superstar (assuming he doesn't do a Roy, of course).

Don't mean to be condescending but.... you need to remove your personal feelings to fairly assess fighters. It doesn't matter what you, me or any tiny minority think about Canelo, the fact is he's universally recognized as a boxing superstar, a multi "world" champion, a P4P standout.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about Charlo or Saunders or whoever you want Golovkin to fight, they are minnows compared to Canelo. Golovkin beat him TWICE - in the majority of fans eyes - and those fights will sit alongside the other great middleweight matchups when it's all said and done. And it's still his biggest fight possible.

you say I need to remove my personal feelings, then you go on to say Golovkin BEAT Canelo TWICE. well , to prove my personal feelings don't get in the way and indeed to prove our agreed perception on legacy, I would say that Canelo is more of an ATG than GGG in the division, because he beat him and drew with him.
Hagler , Obviously was ahead of GGG for all the reasons we gave, SRL could even be classed above GGG at MW , because he beat Hagler. SRR also naturally is ranked above GGG and all other MW's and indeed fighters IMO. RJJ is ahead of GGG, as is Carlos Monzon. Bernard Hopkins made so many more defences that he is ahead of GGG. Sergio Martinez dominated the division as much as GGG and was higher ranked P4P than GGG.
so with all these guys ahead of GGG, how is he an ATG? aren't we diluting All time great a little if every fucker is an ATG?

[p4pking]

Ive never heard anyone make a case that GGG didnt win the first fight. Hopkins would be ahead due to the defences for sure, but the opposition he beat wasnt much, if any, better. If he gets credit for longevity then GGG should too, right? I still havent bothered to sign up for boxrec so im going off memory, but what actual mws did Martinez fight? Only Pavlik comes to mind. Your argument becomes, if a handful of undisputed Legends are ATGs, it dillutes it to put anyone else there

[powerpuncher]

Ive never heard anyone make a case that GGG didnt win the first fight. Hopkins would be ahead due to the defences for sure, but the opposition he beat wasnt much, if any, better. If he gets credit for longevity then GGG should too, right? I still havent bothered to sign up for boxrec so im going off memory, but what actual mws did Martinez fight? Only Pavlik comes to mind. Your argument becomes, if a handful of undisputed Legends are ATGs, it dillutes it to put anyone else there

GGG’s longevity is nothing compared to Hopkins’.

But GGG will go down as a HOFer for sure. He will be a top 10 middleweight of all time possibly (depending how you judge it with old timers). It depends how you define ATG. I think he will be remembered on the level of someone like Cotto. Really good fighter and a for sure HOFer, but not that elite HOFer.

[p4pking]

I didnt say it was; but RJJ, martinez and SRL literally only had one significant fight or two at mw and he puts them above, I was just wondering what the criteria is. Agree with the rest.

[Master]

I didnt say it was; but RJJ, martinez and SRL literally only had one significant fight or two at mw and he puts them above, I was just wondering what the criteria is. Agree with the rest.

Leonard was never a great middleweight and should never be rated at that weight.

Roy Jones was not there long enough either.

Both great fighters and p4p ATG.

I think Golovkin has achieved more than Sergio Martinez at the weight as well.

So overall I agree with you.

[Primo Carnera]

I never said GGG isn’t a future HoF er. Of course he is. My point was , what is the criteria for ATG? Top 3 in the div, top 5, top 10?
As far as I’m concerned, it’s top 2 or 3 that can be called ATG. And GGG isn’t top 5 IMO.
And the reason I made the point was if he had made different decisions and left Catchweight king Canelo to drown in his own piss, he may well have been a MW ATG.
But hey, he’s made money , and that’s fine. But if you sell your soul to the devil , don’t fucking whinge when it all goes pear.

[p4pking]

I never said GGG isn’t a future HoF er. Of course he is. My point was , what is the criteria for ATG? Top 3 in the div, top 5, top 10?
As far as I’m concerned, it’s top 2 or 3 that can be called ATG. And GGG isn’t top 5 IMO.
And the reason I made the point was if he had made different decisions and left Catchweight king Canelo to drown in his own piss, he may well have been a MW ATG.
But hey, he’s made money , and that’s fine. But if you sell your soul to the devil , don’t fucking whinge when it all goes pear.

Thats all fine, but he isnt the one whinging is he? Realistically there were only a few guys he might have fought instead of Canelo, and none of them brought any more legacy points, not to mention nearly the money. Hes been fighting his whole life, came around in a fairly weak era for MWs and doesnt have much time left, hes doing the same thing anyone would do. Plus, if he gets a 3rd fight with Canelo and wins, wouldnt that give him and everyone else more satisfaction than anything else?

[powerpuncher]

I think most people’s problem is that he already beat Canelo twice. The first fight he pretty clearly won and took a rematch with Canelo instead of with Jacobs who he had a much closer fight with. And Jacobs won in many people’s eyes. Then Canelo got caught cheating and GGG waited around again for him instead of moving on. Now he wants to fight him a third time even though most people thought he won both fights. His legacy is already that he bested Canelo twice. It would have been better for his legacy to beat Andrade, Charlo and Saunders instead of having to beat Canelo three times.

[p4pking]

I think most people’s problem is that he already beat Canelo twice. The first fight he pretty clearly won and took a rematch with Canelo instead of with Jacobs who he had a much closer fight with. And Jacobs won in many people’s eyes. Then Canelo got caught cheating and GGG waited around again for him instead of moving on. Now he wants to fight him a third time even though most people thought he won both fights. His legacy is already that he bested Canelo twice. It would have been better for his legacy to beat Andrade, Charlo and Saunders instead of having to beat Canelo three times.

I didnt have a problem with the second fight going either way. I agree he should have rematched Jacobs, but lets not forget he and Canelo are fighting soon. If Jacobs wins that and GGG still fought Canelo a third time, then thats obviously going to look real bad. Like it or not, fans tend to remember the official decision regardless of what happened in the ring. He has a win over Jacobs and not Canelo, on paper. Why would a win over Andrade have been a big deal? That guy might retire or lose with his best result being a close decision over Vanes at this point. I dont think the Charlos or Saunders beat Canelo today to be honest, granted those would be good wins as well though.

[Primo Carnera]

I never said GGG isn’t a future HoF er. Of course he is. My point was , what is the criteria for ATG? Top 3 in the div, top 5, top 10?
As far as I’m concerned, it’s top 2 or 3 that can be called ATG. And GGG isn’t top 5 IMO.
And the reason I made the point was if he had made different decisions and left Catchweight king Canelo to drown in his own piss, he may well have been a MW ATG.
But hey, he’s made money , and that’s fine. But if you sell your soul to the devil , don’t fucking whinge when it all goes pear.

Thats all fine, but he isnt the one whinging is he? Realistically there were only a few guys he might have fought instead of Canelo, and none of them brought any more legacy points, not to mention nearly the money. Hes been fighting his whole life, came around in a fairly weak era for MWs and doesnt have much time left, hes doing the same thing anyone would do. Plus, if he gets a 3rd fight with Canelo and wins, wouldnt that give him and everyone else more satisfaction than anything else?

He did plenty of whinging after the first fight, he then saw Canelo fail a drug test , and He STILL fucking waited on him.
Canelo came into the fights with no titles at MW and had been losing credibility with his catchweights and what most people saw as avoidance of GGG.
GGG gave Canelo a way in. And as for the “winning twice” mandate , which I don’t really go along with if I’m honest, what is it they say? “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.”
He knows he ain’t getting a decision, the same way Jacobs didn’t get the decision against GGG.
And do you know what? In a few weeks, this forum will be full of people posting that Jacobs got robbed on the cards. And they’ll probably be right, but it won’t change anything. And I will probably be one of them.

[p4pking]

Well he had a right to complain didnt he? I think Canelo will beat Jacobs fair and square, but if its at all close of course I agree hes likely to have the judges in his corner as usual. Just realize GGG could have fought literally 4 or 5 times against all the other top challengers and not made as much money as he did for the rematch with Canelo. Like it or not, he made the best choice for himself and his family. To boot, is GGG vs the winner of Canelo-Jacobs not still the best fight at 160?

[Gandalf]

A lot of blah, but I think the most obvious and pertinent thing to say is that this is a naff fight and that GGG appears to be coasting having taken so much time off. I think he won both times against Canelo, so I do not not why he fights unknowns, people on long lay offs, or people way out of their weight class. Big fights at the tail end of a career otherwise people will lose interest and your reputation will be hurt.

[powerpuncher]

I think most people’s problem is that he already beat Canelo twice. The first fight he pretty clearly won and took a rematch with Canelo instead of with Jacobs who he had a much closer fight with. And Jacobs won in many people’s eyes. Then Canelo got caught cheating and GGG waited around again for him instead of moving on. Now he wants to fight him a third time even though most people thought he won both fights. His legacy is already that he bested Canelo twice. It would have been better for his legacy to beat Andrade, Charlo and Saunders instead of having to beat Canelo three times.

I didnt have a problem with the second fight going either way. I agree he should have rematched Jacobs, but lets not forget he and Canelo are fighting soon. If Jacobs wins that and GGG still fought Canelo a third time, then thats obviously going to look real bad. Like it or not, fans tend to remember the official decision regardless of what happened in the ring. He has a win over Jacobs and not Canelo, on paper. Why would a win over Andrade have been a big deal? That guy might retire or lose with his best result being a close decision over Vanes at this point. I dont think the Charlos or Saunders beat Canelo today to be honest, granted those would be good wins as well though.

As we talked about in another thread, saying that so and so would beat so and so doesn’t make it so. That’s why fights are made against top fighters. You could say that GGG and Canelo beat Andrade, but Andrade is a solid fighter that could shock either one of them. That’s why I give more credit to beating a plethora of good fighters than beating a great fighter multiple times. Stylistically it’s harder

[Gandalf]

Well he had a right to complain didnt he? I think Canelo will beat Jacobs fair and square, but if its at all close of course I agree hes likely to have the judges in his corner as usual. Just realize GGG could have fought literally 4 or 5 times against all the other top challengers and not made as much money as he did for the rematch with Canelo. Like it or not, he made the best choice for himself and his family. To boot, is GGG vs the winner of Canelo-Jacobs not still the best fight at 160?

Maybe I sm rather austerity minded, but I like to think several million invested and self growth beyond boxing is more than enough security for a family. When it comes to kids they should make it on their own terms rather than waiting for an inheritance. In the words of the immortal bard himself "What makes a legend most"?

[p4pking]

Well he had a right to complain didnt he? I think Canelo will beat Jacobs fair and square, but if its at all close of course I agree hes likely to have the judges in his corner as usual. Just realize GGG could have fought literally 4 or 5 times against all the other top challengers and not made as much money as he did for the rematch with Canelo. Like it or not, he made the best choice for himself and his family. To boot, is GGG vs the winner of Canelo-Jacobs not still the best fight at 160?

Maybe I sm rather austerity minded, but I like to think several million invested and self growth beyond boxing is more than enough security for a family. When it comes to kids they should make it on their own terms rather than waiting for an inheritance. In the words of the immortal bard himself "What makes a legend most"?

Rather austerity minded isnt exactly the first description that springs to mind forget his family then. He might rather make 20 million than five or six for whatever reason he pleases.