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Thread: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Finally.... rules can be made. I don't care what anyone else says or thinks. You want to put together a multi-million dollar fight where you're going to be compensated hand over fist? You need to abide by these simple, non-stringent, very reasonable rules. We rule boxing... and we'll fine and sanction your ass if you don't comply. Saying something can't be done is the best and most surefire way to never having ANYTHING done.

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Where there s a will there's a way, hopefully camoters can make the fights we want. Without not making us wait. Didn't anyone really go for the story but Wilder camp held out a 50 mill carrot on a stick to AJ, who refused. Who can thumb that down, 50 mill? is that the kind of old-world promotion that we are missing, just throw the number out and make the fight happen? AJ they claimed was more hung up about the venue then the 50mill.

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Spoke like a woke bloke from Stoke (though Swansea tomorrow will probably wipe them out) 😄. Think I'm getting the hang of this now, Bilbo Baggins. The zero is neither here nor there, the padding is just the current fashion, and street fighting in Brixton is all the rage. Me mate seen a street promoter in Lancaster Gate abusing his fighter practically forcing him to fight a guy from Regent's Park... The venue was Mayfair and St James, right behind the Equinox gym .. now that's old school promoting right there!

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
    So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.

    I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.

    Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
    Last edited by Fenster; 10-05-2019 at 07:04 AM.
    3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
    So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.

    I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.

    Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
    Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.

    I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.

    The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
    So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.

    I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.

    Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
    Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.

    I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.

    The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.


    Right on the button. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if someone wants to think that fans are "spoiled children" for wanting only the best matchups, I guess that is their god-given right. If someone would rather concentrate on the business side of boxing, since we're reduced to little else, then I guess that's fine as well.

    All I know is that boxing is the only sport where the best don't always face the best, and all because of the greediness and outsized egos of a small handful of sleazy promoters. When two fighters at the top of their game won't face each other because the promoters are haggling over one percentage of the proceeds, the last thing I want to hear is some finance major giving lectures on Finance 101. Not interested. I'll choose to continue sports as entertainment. Entertainment we pay top dollar for.

    Boxing is the only sport when, if and when the best finally face the best, it's way beyond their peak years and we're all reduced to "what ifs."

    If there was such a thing as reincarnation (which I don't believe in), I'd come back as a boxing promoter because it's the perfect setup. Rob the public of their hard-earned money.... give them shitty or expired product.... watch them coming back for more.... and have them arguing over the "business side" of boxing.

    Hahaha! Priceless. Actually..... what is priceless is calling fans spoiled children because they get upset when major fights are withheld while promoters try to "one-up" each other. Priceless.....

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg , risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.


    You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanz View Post
    It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg , risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.


    You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.


    I've no doubts nor am I denying the existence of the bottom rung of promoters/fighters. But at the PPV, televised level, what you have are multimillionaire promoters who are rich beyond their wildest dreams. And they STILL manage to keep fights from happening because one wants a 55/45 split, and the other one wants a 50/50 split. Or because one just "can't do business" with the other. At the level we're discussing, both fighters AND promoters are beyond the risks you mention. Promoters' wealth is secure... and fighters have already built a reputation and a following which will persist beyond a loss or a "bad night at the office."

    And no... golf and tennis are non-combat sports, that's correct. My only point was that both sports something in common with boxing. For every marquee-name star we watch on TV, there's hundreds upon hundreds of scrubs who barely make a living off the sport, and have to spend their own money and savings just to get from one tournament to the next.

    I'm not asking for "squeaky clean honest promoters." I'm asking for some sort of governing entity/body.... call it what you will.... that will stop the practice of major, logical, WANTED fights being made because Arum won't work with Hearn, who won't work with Warren, who won't work with Haymon, who won't work with Arum...... blah, blah, eternal blah. Even those old dogs King and Arum managed to work together like two good little children in order to bring us some fights we wouldn't have seen otherwise.

    Again, saying something can't be done (and repeating it over and over again), is the most surefire way to never even hoping to get ANYTHING done.

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanz View Post
    It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg , risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.


    You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.


    I've no doubts nor am I denying the existence of the bottom rung of promoters/fighters. But at the PPV, televised level, what you have are multimillionaire promoters who are rich beyond their wildest dreams. And they STILL manage to keep fights from happening because one wants a 55/45 split, and the other one wants a 50/50 split. Or because one just "can't do business" with the other. At the level we're discussing, both fighters AND promoters are beyond the risks you mention. Promoters' wealth is secure... and fighters have already built a reputation and a following which will persist beyond a loss or a "bad night at the office."

    And no... golf and tennis are non-combat sports, that's correct. My only point was that both sports something in common with boxing. For every marquee-name star we watch on TV, there's hundreds upon hundreds of scrubs who barely make a living off the sport, and have to spend their own money and savings just to get from one tournament to the next.

    I'm not asking for "squeaky clean honest promoters." I'm asking for some sort of governing entity/body.... call it what you will.... that will stop the practice of major, logical, WANTED fights being made because Arum won't work with Hearn, who won't work with Warren, who won't work with Haymon, who won't work with Arum...... blah, blah, eternal blah. Even those old dogs King and Arum managed to work together like two good little children in order to bring us some fights we wouldn't have seen otherwise.

    Again, saying something can't be done (and repeating it over and over again), is the most surefire way to never even hoping to get ANYTHING done.
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    That's my issue with it Tits. The elite as in other elite sectors of the world that usually get people boiling over seem to get a pass in boxing and it is seen as sensible to mug fans off a few times and every now and then give a meaningful fight. You cannot tell me GGG needed those two fillers while killing time for Canelo. That is prime wasted time. It reduced his own clout and he was stiffed regardless. I am not sure what money even matters when you have millions and ordinary people will defend that side of it to the hilt. With sensible investment a top boxer need never be poor again, so I find the obsession with the odd percent vulgar. You are both fighters, so respect that you are both taking a risk instead of all the nonsense. Take Wilder and Joshua. There was no way to make a fair deal and just get it on? That's bad for boxing.
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  12. #42
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    50 mill

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing View Post
    Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.

    Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.

    The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.


    No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.

    You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.

    So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.

    That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.

    You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
    You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
    It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
    Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.


    I appreciate you trying to paint promoters as these poor, risk-taking souls who sink their life savings into young pugs in the hopes that someday they'll make some money to put food on the table. But I assure you, we're no longer in the 1950's. Most promoters have plenty of money, and are not risking their livelihoods when they take on a promising fighter. You have a handful of former boxers who have made their millions and are now engaging in boxing promotions (DLH, PBF, Cotto... to name a few). You also have your old fogies who have already made their millions in boxing and are not hurting for money (Arum, for instance). Others have made their fortunes in other businesses and then choose to pursue boxing promotions. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed a tear for the plight of poor boxing promoters.

    Also, let's dispense with the fallacy that promoters sink $$$$ into just any Joe, Dick and Harry that shows up on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure these guys who find good promoters are ones with actual promising futures, who have already shown a remarkable set of skills. So again... it's hard for me to feel sorry for promoters at this point.

    Hey..... I get it that some of you get off on the economics of boxing, I really do. All the more power to you. You want to fill reams and reams of boxing threads with arguments over who makes more money than who..... and why Boxer X never got to face Boxer Y...... go for it. Let's just be honest and call a spade a spade. Boxing promoters are by and large a bunch of greedy bastards who'd rather risk huge fights not being made, rather than take 5% less than the rival promoter, just because that's the type of greedy bastards they are.

    Another thing. Never fails to amaze me how good boxing fans are at disparaging one another (not you necessarily). "Mug fans"..... "fake arse fans"...... "casual fans"..... there is definitely no shortage of names for boxing fans to throw to one another. It's hilarious to me how fans are reduced to arguing about the financials of boxing, when all we really want to do is watch the fights we want to watch. And we're willing to pay good money for them! It's not like we're asking for them for free. Meanwhile, while we're reduced to arguing about contracts and who ducked who, because the big fights don't get made.... promoters are laughing their ass off because they have a fail-safe product which they can sell no matter how long it's been since its expiration date.

    Finance is not my cup of tea. I do my personal finances and do pretty well, thanks very much. But for entertainment I like boxing. And again I couldn't give less of a flying one about any of the economics of the boxers and/or promoters.
    Yeah they're not poor and they don't need the money mostly. They're businessmen and they run their promotional outfits like a business, a thing that has value. They're also humans who compete with other businessmen, develop rivalries with them and don't want to lose out to them. Both things that prevent the big fights being made at the drop of a hat. In the absence of a bunch of philanthropist perfect humans to come along and give contracts to all the fighters we're stuck with these imperfect humans running the show. Nothing we can do about it.

    Promoters invest millions in the people they think have the best chance of giving them those millions back. No shit.


    They're not laughing their arses off at anything. They're struggling to keep going long term in most cases. Look at a second tier outfit like Main Events, the Duva family. They run local shows in the New Jersey area and every now and then develop a star. Their last one was Kovalev who I think has fucked off to another promoter now. No idea whether they made enough Kovalev money when they had him to be comfortable for the next few years but I'm sure they're not so wealthy they're just laughing every day about how easy the job is. I bet it's hard sledding most of the time.

    Of the top guys Haymon's firm is apparently owned by the funds who lent him the money to set up PBC, there's a billionaire taking a punt on streaming by signing up promoters like Oscar to work with them who apart from Alvarez is in danger of becoming a regional outfit on the west coast like Main Events is in NJ, Arum lost his HBO gig and if not for ESPN would be struggling and so on. Nobody is laughing here. It's an ongoing slog through a changing media landscape and nobody knows who is going to last the pace. In the meantime these guys are not going to change a single thing about the way they operate.

    Y

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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
    So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.

    I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.

    Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
    Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.

    I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.

    The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.


    Right on the button. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if someone wants to think that fans are "spoiled children" for wanting only the best matchups, I guess that is their god-given right. If someone would rather concentrate on the business side of boxing, since we're reduced to little else, then I guess that's fine as well.

    All I know is that boxing is the only sport where the best don't always face the best, and all because of the greediness and outsized egos of a small handful of sleazy promoters. When two fighters at the top of their game won't face each other because the promoters are haggling over one percentage of the proceeds, the last thing I want to hear is some finance major giving lectures on Finance 101. Not interested. I'll choose to continue sports as entertainment. Entertainment we pay top dollar for.

    Boxing is the only sport when, if and when the best finally face the best, it's way beyond their peak years and we're all reduced to "what ifs."

    If there was such a thing as reincarnation (which I don't believe in), I'd come back as a boxing promoter because it's the perfect setup. Rob the public of their hard-earned money.... give them shitty or expired product.... watch them coming back for more.... and have them arguing over the "business side" of boxing.

    Hahaha! Priceless. Actually..... what is priceless is calling fans spoiled children because they get upset when major fights are withheld while promoters try to "one-up" each other. Priceless.....
    Nobody called anyone a spoilt child for wanting the best against the best. As this thread highlights, there is simply nothing in boxing to ever satisfy everyone, one mans great matchup is anothers garbage. Your "top dollar" fight is another mans "mug" fight.

    Boxing is nothing like other sports, where athletes compete dozens and dozens of times to establish a hierarchy. People in this thread are saying AJ-Wilder is "tainted." Why? Because one of them suffered ONE loss. Yet if Andy Ruiz beats AJ again what was so special about the Wilder fight anyway, as Ruiz will have proven better than AJ. And he's already ranked no.1 with that one upset. Boxing is impossible to accurately rank, nobody can ever fight everyone, there's always the next guy, THE best is basically fantasy.

    Look at this thread, so far boxing is rubbish because of - promoters, fans, boxers, TV companies, elite spoilt boxers and.... money. Priceless. The sole reason for being a pro boxer is to make money, every fighter in history turned pro to make money. Tennis players, golfers, footballers don't start out seeking to earn a living, they love what they do, they're not risking their life, not half sick in the head. They can suffer dozens and dozens of loses, spend years in the wilderness yet turn it all around with one great tournament (like your hero Tiger).

    You guys should try to understand that punches actually hurt? All fighters suffer permanent damage, whether it physical, mental or both. It's scary staring at a man who's trained to the minute to rip your head off. It's not like playstations where you press reset to start again.

    And you get upset by someone describing fans as "spoilt children." Priceless.
    3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.

    In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had

    Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
    Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
    Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
    Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
    Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
    Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)

    Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans (no disrespect)
    Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
    So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.

    I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.

    Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
    Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.

    I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.

    The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.


    Right on the button. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if someone wants to think that fans are "spoiled children" for wanting only the best matchups, I guess that is their god-given right. If someone would rather concentrate on the business side of boxing, since we're reduced to little else, then I guess that's fine as well.

    All I know is that boxing is the only sport where the best don't always face the best, and all because of the greediness and outsized egos of a small handful of sleazy promoters. When two fighters at the top of their game won't face each other because the promoters are haggling over one percentage of the proceeds, the last thing I want to hear is some finance major giving lectures on Finance 101. Not interested. I'll choose to continue sports as entertainment. Entertainment we pay top dollar for.

    Boxing is the only sport when, if and when the best finally face the best, it's way beyond their peak years and we're all reduced to "what ifs."

    If there was such a thing as reincarnation (which I don't believe in), I'd come back as a boxing promoter because it's the perfect setup. Rob the public of their hard-earned money.... give them shitty or expired product.... watch them coming back for more.... and have them arguing over the "business side" of boxing.

    Hahaha! Priceless. Actually..... what is priceless is calling fans spoiled children because they get upset when major fights are withheld while promoters try to "one-up" each other. Priceless.....
    Nobody called anyone a spoilt child for wanting the best against the best. As this thread highlights, there is simply nothing in boxing to ever satisfy everyone, one mans great matchup is anothers garbage. Your "top dollar" fight is another mans "mug" fight.

    Boxing is nothing like other sports, where athletes compete dozens and dozens of times to establish a hierarchy. People in this thread are saying AJ-Wilder is "tainted." Why? Because one of them suffered ONE loss. Yet if Andy Ruiz beats AJ again what was so special about the Wilder fight anyway, as Ruiz will have proven better than AJ. And he's already ranked no.1 with that one upset. Boxing is impossible to accurately rank, nobody can ever fight everyone, there's always the next guy, THE best is basically fantasy.

    Look at this thread, so far boxing is rubbish because of - promoters, fans, boxers, TV companies, elite spoilt boxers and.... money. Priceless. The sole reason for being a pro boxer is to make money, every fighter in history turned pro to make money. Tennis players, golfers, footballers don't start out seeking to earn a living, they love what they do, they're not risking their life, not half sick in the head. They can suffer dozens and dozens of loses, spend years in the wilderness yet turn it all around with one great tournament (like your hero Tiger).

    You guys should try to understand that punches actually hurt? All fighters suffer permanent damage, whether it physical, mental or both. It's scary staring at a man who's trained to the minute to rip your head off. It's not like playstations where you press reset to start again.

    And you get upset by someone describing fans as "spoilt children." Priceless.


    Fans aren't spoilt children (ok I'll spell it in old English ), Fenster. Fans are normal people seeking a respite from their daily drudgery, willing to spend hard-earned money to watch top entertainment. It's why professional sports leagues are constantly tweaking their product, making adjustments here and there. To satisfy the craving of fans for better and better competitive sports entertainment. But you're free to call fans whatever you want. It's a free country, like they say.

    Other things you said I have no issue with, believe it or not. There IS nothing in boxing to ever satisfy everyone. Nothing is truer than that. One man's great matchup IS another man's garbage. You say "people" in this thread say AJ-Wilder is "tainted." At least you didn't make it all inclusive. 'Cause count me out of that group. If it's tainted, bring it here, 'cause I'd still love to see that fight and would gladly pay the PPV. So not all of us "spoilt children" are the same. (I keep getting spellchecked on "spoilt", but I'll continue using it during the remainder of this post).

    Ok... then you use your poetic license and say the thread is about boxing being rubbish because of all the things you proceed to name. No. I started the thread, so allow me to tell you what the thread is about. It's about greedy, sleazy promoters, who are already multimillionaires, haggling over half a percentage (or refusing to work with another, rival promoter).... while fights that are not only wanted and demanded by the public, but wanted by the boxers themselves.... go unmade. THAT is what the thread is about. Yes, you're welcome.

    Your next sentences are devoted to making as huge a chasm as possible between boxers and every other pro athlete. It's as if boxers hate boxing from Day One. They only get into it because they're thinking solely about the money. They actually HATE and FEAR boxing. No boxer in the history of the world got started in boxing because they like it. That is a fantasy. Every boxer that has ever lived began in boxing because they were only thinking about the money, while trying to keep out of their minds how much they hated boxing. Please....

    I know it's all part of trying to make a point. But nothing changes the original purpose and statement of this thread, which is that the sport of boxing has suffered (not rubbish.... suffered... it's still a great sport) because of a handful of super-rich promoters who keep major fights from happening WHEN they should logically happen, all because of one or two percentage points..... or because they want to let fights "marinate" (translation: I don't want to lose my cash cow just yet)..... or because their ego prevents them from co-promoting a fight with "so-and-so."

    What's actually priceless is the lengths some here will go to in order to defend the very sport they turn around and criticize so vehemently. At least I'm honest about it.

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