Junior Mints 🥊
Junior Mints 🥊
Just for fun, I will compare Canelo to the three guys Fenster said that he is on par with in greatness. I’m going to guess that afterwards he will try to back pedal saying it’s not what he meant, but oh well. I will do it any way. Canelo could still possibly become an ATG. He is still young and if he proves to be extremely durable, then he could have a long reign at the top of the boxing world and become on the same tier as these guys. Anyways, here I go.
De la Hoya: five years into his career, he beat an ATG in Whitaker. Close fight that could have gone either way. Whitaker is on the same tier as Mayweather. Eight years into his career (I get that I’m not counting amateur experience) Canelo fought Mayweather and got completely shut out. Coincidentally, both were 23 years old. Both of their opponents were past their best I would say. De la Hoya fought and lost a very controversial decision to Trinidad. Most people, including me, thought the Oscar should have easily won. Canelo fought GGG twice and won once and had one draw. Majority of people thought that GGG deserved to win both fights. I would guess that I could compare Trinidad and GGG in greatness. Let’s just go with it. So I would say that Oscar handled Tito much easier than Canelo handled GGG. Oscar lost a SD against Mosley and then got robbed again in their second fight. Most everyone saw de la Hoya winning that fight. Mosley is another ATG fighter. He also fought Mayweather at the end of his career and gave him a really close fight (who we already mentioned shut out Canelo). Canelo fought close fights against Lara and Trout. I’m not sure which of Oscars opponents I would compare those two to, but let’s go with Vargas comparing their level of greatness. Oscar knocked out Vargas and convincingly won. You could maybe come back with de la Hoya had a close win against Quartay.
The point is, I know that all fighters will have some close fights no matter what. It’s the nature of boxing. Styles make fights. The difference is that Oscar proved to be able to convincingly beat great opponents on occasion and even have debateable decisions with truly elite fighters (Whitaker and Mayweather). Canelo has not proven that at all. Not saying he still can’t, but he is not at all on that level. His resume does not rival Oscars in the slightest IMO.
Bhop: Bhop could be compared to GGG. A lot of his greatness comes from his longevity. Bhop also completely dismantled top guys in the division. Absolutely embarrassed Tito, the only person to stop De la Hoya (I get that the weight difference was pretty significant but it’s still a pretty good accomplishment), shut out Pavlik who was supposed to be the next big thing and was the MAN at middleweight at the time, went up in weight and destroyed Tarver who was at the top of his game.
Again, he had some close/controversial losses (Calzaghe and Taylor) against good/great fighters, but that’s fine because he proved to be able to completely dominate some good and great fighters. As I’ve said countless times, Canelo has yet to dominate a really good fighter. He beat Jacobs convincingly but he didn’t dominate and every other good fighter he has faced it has been a close decision that could have gone either way.
Chavez: his resume may not be as good as the previous two, but like Bhop, he went on a tear and just wrecked his competition. He got a controversial draw against Whitaker, but proved to at least be able to hang with him. He fought a lot of solid fighters and reigned at the top for a long time. Again, he didn’t just squeak by these good fighters, he absolutely destroyed some of them. Let’s just look at one. A lot of people say that he ruined Camacho by how badly he beat him. Canelo doesn’t even have one match that he beat a fighter near that caliber that convincingly.
Really long post (I’m taking my post advice from @TitoFan) but I’m showing how ridiculous it is to say that Canelo is on the same tier as those guys. I agree that these fighters are a tier below people like Mayweather, Duran, Ali, etc, but Canelo is at very least a tier below them. If not two tiers. He hasn’t proven yet to be more than a great fighter that can get close decisions against good fighters.
A note about BHop, Trinidad, and DLH. Trinidad and DLH faced off at 147. From there they both went to 154, then to 160. Both lost to Hopkins, a lifelong middleweight, at 160. But whereas Trinidad had KO'ed William Joppy prior to that, another middleweight champion, DLH's foray into middleweight wasn't nearly as impressive. Against BHop, Trinidad went the full fight before being TKO'ed in the last round. Against BHop, DLH never looked like he belonged, before being dispatched with a glancing liver shot in the 9th. Not really trying to make a point here, other than to put my own twist on Trinidad and DLH in the heavier weights.
You asked for a distinction between elite and great, I gave you boxing gods and HOF-greats. Canelo will never be a boxing god, he's "currently" a first ballot HOFamer (whether you like it or not), a few bad losses his stock will drop significantly, look at Roy, went from "superman" to chinny cherry picker in the blink of an eye.
I never said "everyone" underrates Canelo, I started by explaining all reputable publications have him top 5 P4P and he's the biggest star, however, reading fan forums like this I get the impression he is underrated not overrated. You yourself are a prime example, anyone reading your posts would think Canelo has never faced a top name apart from Golovkin.
Name some current fighters who meet the standards you've put on Golovkin and Canelo? Lets start with your P4P no.1 - Bud?
Last edited by Fenster; 10-10-2019 at 05:50 AM.
3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.
It’s unfortunate too because you do make some good points sometimes and are at least pretty knowledgeable, but your attitude of having to be against the norm makes it hard to have a good debate.
And before you come in and say it, no I’m not avoiding your question. I already proved what you said way wrong and you won’t just admit it and move forward. You had to backtrack. Therefore there is no reason to debate further.
Comparing individual performances across eras is impossible, nothing but fantasy. How can we determine one fighter was REALISTICALLY tougher to beat than an other? We can't.
3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.
Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.
I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.
3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.
I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”
1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.
By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.
So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.
I wonder how it effects a fighters head to win but lose. I guess they know going into it it’s part of the game. GGG will always be the man to me. He is the last guy I saw fight live, I mean they are all live, just the last one I saw live. You can feel the guys punches six rows back like a bass drum at a concert
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