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Thread: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Size usually matters, I hate it but let's look at some examples where size really did mattered:

    1. First based off Lennox Louis's destruction of everybody he ever faced (let aside for now his to knockout losses with HE REVENGED in a devastation-style), he only struggled against Klitshko. He really laid a whooping down to Ray Mercer and Mike Tyson, even though they are so powerful, Lennox size dominated.

    2. Now Klitschko as the examples, he dominated everyone and his size was the big factor, but moment he faced the guy the same size as in AJ, and also in Fury, he choked in both battles. Because this size was bigger than his size.

    3. Ruddock Bowe destroyed everyone he faced and was undefeated because he was always the biggest fighter. That is why he tried to avoid Lenox Louis. Finally when Bo faced a fighter his own size, Andrew Gollota, he got a butt whooping 2 *.

    4. See how Foreman knocked out Frazier two times. Frasier can never win that fight. Why? Because size matters.

    5. Least but not least, Valuev could not be beat, due to SIZE.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    1. Wladimir had the size, athleticism, and skill to give Ali trouble- bad style matchup for Ali.
    2. Lennox and Riddick were both big men who had the jabs and ability to beat a prime Ali.
    3. Larry Holmes in his prime gives Ali trouble with his jab.
    4. Fury is a horrible match up for Ali.
    5. Frazier and Ken Norton have Ali’s number and bad style match ups- they could pull the win out.

    Ali is favored vs all of those listed, but I think they all are capable of pulling off the upset vs the great Ali.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    1. Wladimir had the size, athleticism, and skill to give Ali trouble- bad style matchup for Ali.
    2. Lennox and Riddick were both big men who had the jabs and ability to beat a prime Ali.
    3. Larry Holmes in his prime gives Ali trouble with his jab.
    4. Fury is a horrible match up for Ali.
    5. Frazier and Ken Norton have Ali’s number and bad style match ups- they could pull the win out.

    Ali is favored vs all of those listed, but I think they all are capable of pulling off the upset vs the great Ali.
    @mikeeod Mike that is a great analysis. I totally agree. Especially with your number 1 and number 2 and number 4. And youre wright Frazier in Norton both had his number

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.
    Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

    Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


    Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








    ......but he's no Joe Louis
    A contest between Ali and Vitali Klitschko would be fascinating. Ali of 1967 was lightning, but could he deal with the size? Vitali had chin, output, and could bang. Wlad is less interesting for me as I can just see him getting buzzed and folding. I have always liked Vitali more as a fighter.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.
    Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

    Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


    Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








    ......but he's no Joe Louis
    A contest between Ali and Vitali Klitschko would be fascinating. Ali of 1967 was lightning, but could he deal with the size? Vitali had chin, output, and could bang. Wlad is less interesting for me as I can just see him getting buzzed and folding. I have always liked Vitali more as a fighter.
    Vitali is good but he is way too open to get countered. Ali would cut him up badly. I see stylistically Wlad giving Ali some trouble, but his chin is too weak to really survive I think.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Ok, remember I did not ask for this, you made me do it.

    Joe did not duck anyone but whoever they were they were not of the calibre or league of Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

    Remember Billy Conn, if a light heavy can out box Joe who was a slow starter and got knocked down early in some of his defences what would a full grown prime Ali do?

    Jack Johnson I believe weighed over 15 stones which was heavy for that time period. He had great boxing skills too. I was not talking about height.
    I made you do NOTHING. Bring your tired ass arguments. Joe didn't duck anyone, THANK YOU for proving, my point.

    Billy Conn got BEAT....twice. You can do nothing but speculate as to what a full grown prime Ali would do...Joe Louis certainly had better nights than the Conn fight and Ali certainly had worse nights than the Williams fight. You make the mistake of taking the best of the best of the best of Ali and then holding up an overall poor Joe Louis performance (one where he needed a KO and GOT IT mind you) and say "You think this could beat this?"....why would it not be Ali as Conn who boxes perfectly for 15 rounds and then gets KO'd late trying to finish the show? Why in your mind does that NEVER happen? Surely Ali never suffered a KO loss like that BUT Joe Louis certainly dealt those out.


    And that's the problem in a nutshell with this game...Marciano never lost a single fight and yet "Well he's too small to beat Ali" ....well I guess Marciano stood no chance vs the larger Rex Layne....oh wait.


    I'm not hating on Ali by saying he's beatable, I'm merely pointing out Joe Louis' statistical achievement which no heavyweight has ever matched (or probably ever will) match. It's a special achievement and worthy of praise and accolade.


    15 stone....210 pounds....again not "giant"
    You made me do it and it hurts critizing the great Joe Louis.

    Whilst i said Joe did not duck anyone you conveniently ignored the important fact that you can not dispute (but you will now try) that he never fought anyone of the calibre that Ali fought. Frazier, Foreman and Liston were great boxers better than anything Joe fought.

    It is more than speculation that Joe had trouble with movers and Ali was all wrong for Louis.


    It is not just size that Ali had the advantage it was speed and skill.


    25 defences is a sign of a great heavyweight champion and i am not belittling that.


    15 stone is big for those times when Johnson fought.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    You made me do it and it hurts critizing the great Joe Louis.

    Whilst i said Joe did not duck anyone you conveniently ignored the important fact that you can not dispute (but you will now try) that he never fought anyone of the calibre that Ali fought. Frazier, Foreman and Liston were great boxers better than anything Joe fought.

    It is more than speculation that Joe had trouble with movers and Ali was all wrong for Louis.


    It is not just size that Ali had the advantage it was speed and skill.


    25 defences is a sign of a great heavyweight champion and i am not belittling that.


    15 stone is big for those times when Johnson fought.



    So he didn't duck anyone BUT he also didn't fight guys who weren't around during his era...gee how very dare he


    And Ali what didn't have trouble with Joe Frazier? Compare just a left hand (all Frazier had when he beat Ali) to Louis' arsenal...dynamite in both hands, rarely misjudged distance, very accurate and devastating when he landed. I must be imagining things but didn't Henry Cooper almost KO Ali? Is 'enry on par with Louis in terms of greatness as a boxer?


    Ali had speed and size advantages over most of the guys he fought....he still lost fights.


    25 in a row is statistically the GREATEST


    John L. Sullivan was just as big ...I don't doubt Johnson's greatness, just saying 'Galveston Giant' is a bit much. Bigger than the common man, perhaps, but still. Great fighter, giant personality, exceptionally tall? Nah. Exceptionally muscular? Nah. Just an exceptional fighter.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    You made me do it and it hurts critizing the great Joe Louis.

    Whilst i said Joe did not duck anyone you conveniently ignored the important fact that you can not dispute (but you will now try) that he never fought anyone of the calibre that Ali fought. Frazier, Foreman and Liston were great boxers better than anything Joe fought.

    It is more than speculation that Joe had trouble with movers and Ali was all wrong for Louis.


    It is not just size that Ali had the advantage it was speed and skill.


    25 defences is a sign of a great heavyweight champion and i am not belittling that.


    15 stone is big for those times when Johnson fought.



    So he didn't duck anyone BUT he also didn't fight guys who weren't around during his era...gee how very dare he


    And Ali what didn't have trouble with Joe Frazier? Compare just a left hand (all Frazier had when he beat Ali) to Louis' arsenal...dynamite in both hands, rarely misjudged distance, very accurate and devastating when he landed. I must be imagining things but didn't Henry Cooper almost KO Ali? Is 'enry on par with Louis in terms of greatness as a boxer?


    Ali had speed and size advantages over most of the guys he fought....he still lost fights.


    25 in a row is statistically the GREATEST


    John L. Sullivan was just as big ...I don't doubt Johnson's greatness, just saying 'Galveston Giant' is a bit much. Bigger than the common man, perhaps, but still. Great fighter, giant personality, exceptionally tall? Nah. Exceptionally muscular? Nah. Just an exceptional fighter.
    Why you rolling your eyes I thought this was a bit of fun?

    I name 3 great heavyweights not because Joe never fought them which is impossible but he never fought anyone as good as them.

    Ali may have been knocked down but he always got back up and had a fantastic chin.

    Wlad was 2nd highest title defences but no one would have him as the 2nd best heavyweight of all time.

    The point about Johnson is a separate point and unrelated to Ali but pointing out Johnson was ahead of his time.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    A prime Ali is simply too fast and elusive for anyone and would dance the whole 12 (or 15) rounds. He UDs and schools even his most difficult opponent.

    You could say those with one punch power would have a puncher's chance eg Tyson - but a prime Ali does not get hit, and even then has a hell of a jaw, so that cancels that one out.

    The only fighters I see with any chance of troubling him are fighters like Vitali, Lewis and Fury - and that's purely based on their size.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    and yes - good thread

    How has it taken this long for this subject to come up ??
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Why you rolling your eyes I thought this was a bit of fun?

    I name 3 great heavyweights not because Joe never fought them which is impossible but he never fought anyone as good as them.

    Ali may have been knocked down but he always got back up and had a fantastic chin.

    Wlad was 2nd highest title defences but no one would have him as the 2nd best heavyweight of all time.

    The point about Johnson is a separate point and unrelated to Ali but pointing out Johnson was ahead of his time.
    I am having a bit of fun dismantling your arguments.

    Joe fought the best of the best in his era and won 25 in a row. How could you or anyone else expect anything more from the guy? Expecting more from him (especially considering, he like your much beloved Ali had years of his prime taken from him, Danke Adolf ) Is more ever expected of Ali? Why not? Joe Louis did everything a guy could do and in his era he dominated from 1938 to 1950 he was THE MAN and nobody in any era has been able to replicate his feat...and therefore it's impressive and therefore it deserves praise and attention and Joe Louis deserves his name listed at the tippy top of the All-Time greats of the division not because he had a weak era, but everything he COULD control he did and did so brilliantly. What is wrong with that?


    I say great things about Joe Louis because he earned them. I don't or attempt to not diminish what Ali accomplished, I always mention that he's a great boxer...he's not MY Greatest of All-Time. Why is that a bother for some people? Rocky Marciano never lost a single fight .... how's it logical to say "Oh yeah Ali was better than Rocky because of his opponents"...Rocky couldn't pick and choose who he had in his era anymore than Ali did.


    Ali had his glove cut to give him time to survive vs Cooper. I'm sorry, it's clever, it's smart thinking from Dundee, but come on dude.


    Wlad's title defenses weren't all in a row. He cumulatively held the title longer than anyone else, but that involves LOSING in between title reigns so that dents his standing. I think he's top 10, based on resiliency and longevity at the top, but that's me and my personal opinion...others are free to vary.

    Must people ALWAYS read my celebration of the Great Joe Louis as a disrespect to Muhammad Ali? Joe Louis is MY All-Time Greatest Heavyweight Champion he stands alone on top of the peak of the sport in that division and my view isn't going to budge an inch. Ali is up there, Marciano is up there...great champions, but the GREATEST, statistically the GREATEST is Joe Louis and had it not been for WW2 he could have easily had 35 successful title defenses in a row.


    How exactly was Johnson ahead of his time? I'm not being an ass, I just am curious. The stick and move style for heavyweights had been around, perhaps the brash audaciousness and flashiness of the man himself was new, or perhaps due to the era it was broadcast farther and wider and therefore had a larger impact? I think Johnson's style had certainly been seen elsewhere, I think the sport was changing at the time, I think he was a big personality and an exceptional boxer, but new and unique altogether? Maybe. But I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on him being ahead of his time.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    What are you bumbling on about? Of course you can only fight who is in your era.

    Where have you dismantled my argument? You just keep ignoring what I wrote.

    What I am saying quite clearly is that Ali fought 3 of the greatest heavyweights ever in the history of the division and you could not name me any who were better that Joe beat than them or who would be in anyone's top 10.

    I am not expecting you to agree and you can have anyone as your number 1 heavyweight. Twenty five defences is a great statistic but use your common sense and intelligence. Joe was vulnerable early, got knocked down by relatively average fighters, slow footed and did not like movers. Joe was knocked out before became champion. All clear signs that Ali was the perfect boxer to beat Joe Louis, he was all wrong for him.

    We can debate Jack Johnson another time he is getting in the way of this post.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    What are you bumbling on about? Of course you can only fight who is in your era.

    Where have you dismantled my argument? You just keep ignoring what I wrote.

    What I am saying quite clearly is that Ali fought 3 of the greatest heavyweights ever in the history of the division and you could not name me any who were better that Joe beat than them or who would be in anyone's top 10.

    I am not expecting you to agree and you can have anyone as your number 1 heavyweight. Twenty five defences is a great statistic but use your common sense and intelligence. Joe was vulnerable early, got knocked down by relatively average fighters, slow footed and did not like movers. Joe was knocked out before became champion. All clear signs that Ali was the perfect boxer to beat Joe Louis, he was all wrong for him.

    We can debate Jack Johnson another time he is getting in the way of this post.
    Well if you can only fight who is in your era why are you holding Joe Louis' era against him? He had no control over it!


    ok sure, I didn't "dismantle your argument" whatever you say.


    What makes those 3 heavyweights "great"? I didn't even attempt to list off who Joe Louis beat because good, bad, indifferent they are different fighters from different eras. And while you can look at someone like Max Baer and say "He wasn't great" in his era he was a big time somebody as was James J Braddock, Jimmy Bivins was a hell of a fighter quite underrated, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter, Max Schmeling was a quality fighter, the nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer who had a very good record was easily taken out by Joe TWICE.


    Louis had trouble with movers....ok and my response was Ali had trouble with Frazier who stalked Ali down each time they fought and guess what Ali lost one of those bouts. Louis had trouble with Walcott when Louis was well past it, but in the rematch Louis knocked him spark out.


    Sorry, Joe Louis is my guy, I'd take him over ANY other heavyweight, ANY @Master.....ANY
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    What are you bumbling on about? Of course you can only fight who is in your era.

    Where have you dismantled my argument? You just keep ignoring what I wrote.

    What I am saying quite clearly is that Ali fought 3 of the greatest heavyweights ever in the history of the division and you could not name me any who were better that Joe beat than them or who would be in anyone's top 10.

    I am not expecting you to agree and you can have anyone as your number 1 heavyweight. Twenty five defences is a great statistic but use your common sense and intelligence. Joe was vulnerable early, got knocked down by relatively average fighters, slow footed and did not like movers. Joe was knocked out before became champion. All clear signs that Ali was the perfect boxer to beat Joe Louis, he was all wrong for him.

    We can debate Jack Johnson another time he is getting in the way of this post.
    Well if you can only fight who is in your era why are you holding Joe Louis' era against him? He had no control over it!


    ok sure, I didn't "dismantle your argument" whatever you say.


    What makes those 3 heavyweights "great"? I didn't even attempt to list off who Joe Louis beat because good, bad, indifferent they are different fighters from different eras. And while you can look at someone like Max Baer and say "He wasn't great" in his era he was a big time somebody as was James J Braddock, Jimmy Bivins was a hell of a fighter quite underrated, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter, Max Schmeling was a quality fighter, the nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer who had a very good record was easily taken out by Joe TWICE.


    Louis had trouble with movers....ok and my response was Ali had trouble with Frazier who stalked Ali down each time they fought and guess what Ali lost one of those bouts. Louis had trouble with Walcott when Louis was well past it, but in the rematch Louis knocked him spark out.


    Sorry, Joe Louis is my guy, I'd take him over ANY other heavyweight, ANY @Master.....ANY
    None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

    No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

    I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

    No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

    I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.
    How do you define that "level"? It's a bit ambiguous. Sonny Liston isn't a top 10 heavyweight, sorry. I'm not 100% certain Joe Frazier is top 10, he's around there, but golly you're talking quality of opponents one second then you're touting a guy who beat Buster Mathis for a vacant title, Foster, Ali, and who else? Jerry Quarry? Beating a great fighter once doesn't make you a great fighter it doesn't even mean you fought a great fight, sometimes the champ sucks on a specific night.

    Getting knocked down doesn't mean much unless you STAY down. I guess this sort of thing really hampers the reputation of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson among others.

    It kind of seems like you're taking what I've posted personally.



    Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time FACT.
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