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Thread: the jab

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: the jab

    I did find that is excellent question, and I think to jab off the back foot is more a defensive move. I can't get much into it, but off the back foot I did it when wanting to break rythym of our opponents timing. You jab off the back foot to interrupt the momentum of him. Not to hurt him. Not enough power behind.

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    Default Re: the jab

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo View Post
    the right way to teach the jab is to push off the back foot and slide the front foot. heres emmanuel steward showing how to throw the jab.
    Far be it for me to disagree with the great Emmanuel Steward, but this can't be idealized as the one 'right' way to teach the jab.

    The jab taught by Steward above is geared toward professional boxing, to force the opponent back, to gain territory or to stop and opponent's advance. This jab leads you into contact - for a boxer looking to hit, move and evade and oncoming opponent this is not the tool he would use.

    As an amateur I was taught a quick jab to score points or to make contact before a scoring combination.
    The emphasis was always speed, a low risk or 'feeler' punch and this is still valuable.
    Before turning professional this was overhauled and I was taught the more powerful jab as demonstrated by Steward.

    Both have their place and now as a coach I try and teach boxers to use the correct tool for their situation.
    I was only an instrument that God used to play his music through. Loved being that instrument because he gave me some beautiful music to play.

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    Default Re: the jab

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo View Post
    but when you add a weight transfer to the jab, you free up the back foot, giving the jab a couple of useful effects.
    by freeing up the back foot you can jab and circle left. the idea is to side step the opponent's punches and keep him locked in a perpetual state of turning to try to return you back in front of him.
    I didn't really want to get deep on this, but if we need to, let's pick this apart.
    You must retain weight on the back foot as you jab, or you will not be able to throw a right hand with any force or conviction.

    If you throw your weight forward every time you jab you will not be able to follow up with anything and you will also have over committed, placing yourself under threat of any basic jab counter.

    Furthermore, there is no sidestep in the selected movement.
    The technique illustrated is a jab & pivot taught very commonly in amateur boxing; however, this one is actually done poorly.

    (i) Mayweather crosses his legs, temporarily compromising his balance.
    (ii) His lead leg is not placed outside of his opponents range, so even as he turn he is still in the target area.
    (iii) He does not finish in the fundamental position and has to lift his lead leg and resent before he can move or attack.

    It is Mayweather's superior timing and control of territory that saw him exit this situation so easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo View Post
    by freeing up the back foot you can jab and step back. it has the same action as the jab emmanuel steward was showing, only in reverse: you push off on the front foot and slide the back foot. when you press down on your front foot on the end of your jab - a weight transfer - you are always ready to push off on it and step back from a counter, should you need to. throw enough jabs, and you will.
    what both these jabs have in common is that the front foot will need to be anchored down and the back foot will need to be free to move. one more thing they have common is that they will keep you from getting hit back. fighters who will not learn these jabs will tend to become stationary - and hit more.
    I disagree.

    The technique you are referring to does exist - just not in this Locche clip.

    There are two seperate techniques in play.
    1. Locche flicks a range finding jab.
    2. He uses a very simple step away, pushing off the front foot, the jab has no contribution to the reverse momentum.

    But what your are saying is not entirely wrong.
    Fighters such as James Toney who learned from the school of George Benton would use their rear foot to adjust their positioning in relation to their opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo View Post
    joe montana said he used to throw with a 90/10 weight distribution on each leg; meaning 90% weight on the back leg and 10% weight on the front leg. can you imagine getting hit by a guy throwing a right hand at you with a 90/10 weight distribution? well anyway, i don't agree that a balanced stance, lets say 50/50 on each leg, is any better than a 60/40 stance or for that matter that a 60/40 or 40/60 stance is wrong. watch niccolino locche fight. he stood up on his front leg just like an egret. how is it that one of the greatest defensive fighters ever could stand on his front leg and lean into the opponent's attack and get hit less?
    I am not familiar with Joe Montana.

    The 50:50 weight distribution is optimal for movement - that's just bio-mechanics.
    the 60:40 weight distribution will retain weight on the rear hip and elevate the front shoulder to maximise the defense attributed of the fundamental position.

    If Niccolino Locche was one of the greatest defensive fighters ever then why is his style not taught to novice boxers?
    It is because he was an exception to the rule. Much like Roy Jones whose speed and reflexes made him singular.
    A boxer can be taught position, movement and technique.
    Athleticism, reflexes and natural ability cannot be taught.
    I was only an instrument that God used to play his music through. Loved being that instrument because he gave me some beautiful music to play.

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    Default Re: the jab

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    Far be it for me to disagree with the great Emmanuel Steward, but this can't be idealized as the one 'right' way to teach the jab.

    The jab taught by Steward above is geared toward professional boxing, to force the opponent back, to gain territory or to stop and opponent's advance. This jab leads you into contact - for a boxer looking to hit, move and evade and oncoming opponent this is not the tool he would use.

    As an amateur I was taught a quick jab to score points or to make contact before a scoring combination.
    The emphasis was always speed, a low risk or 'feeler' punch and this is still valuable.
    Before turning professional this was overhauled and I was taught the more powerful jab as demonstrated by Steward.

    Both have their place and now as a coach I try and teach boxers to use the correct tool for their situation.
    what i like about that jab, is that you throw it only as hard as you need to throw it, but the mechanics stay the same. you push off just a little, or you push off a lot, but you push off the back foot all the time.

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    Default Re: the jab

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    I didn't really want to get deep on this, but if we need to, let's pick this apart.
    You must retain weight on the back foot as you jab, or you will not be able to throw a right hand with any force or conviction.
    yes i talked about this a few posts ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo View Post
    the thinking goes: no weight transfer when you push off the back leg to jab --> weight transfer onto your front leg when you throw the right hand --> weight transfer from your front leg back to your back leg when you throw the hook. thus completes a cycle, as each punch contributes into the next punch, and returns to its starting point: the back leg.
    that is the thinking, and so the question is, would there be any reason to not keep weight on that back leg when you jab. well, i think i have been found out, and i should spill the beans now because the object of this thread was to talk about two jabs. they are two jabs that i think are very important. they are the jab circling to your left, and the jab step back. and they both require a weight transfer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    If you throw your weight forward every time you jab you will not be able to follow up with anything and you will also have over committed, placing yourself under threat of any basic jab counter.
    do you like baseball? lets talk a little baseball. a long time ago there was a thing called the deadball era. teams played small ball. hitters would dink and dunk the baseball all around the infield, using hit and run plays and stolen bases, not power hitting, to score runs. home run baker was the home run king, but never hit more than 12 home runs in one season. that all changed with babe ruth. by 1920, babe ruth was hitting, an utterly unprecedented, one home run for every 9.5 at bats. heres his swing.



    back foot stays weighted, as the hands stay back, and the front foot strides forward - a one legged motion. weight transfers from the back foot onto the front foot at front foot strike, releasing the back foot, rotating the hips, and pulling the hands not far behind them into an uppercut swing path and follow through - a one legged motion.

    that is the swing that changed the game of baseball. a thing true, is true forever. and you can still see that swing, and those mechanics, today, and always.



    you will know there is a weight transfer because you will see the back foot come up or skim along the ground at front foot strike, demonstrating that a weight transfer, from the back leg to front leg, has happened. i like baseball, but the point of showing you this, was to show you what a weight transfer actually looks like. weight transfers are one legged motions, where one leg is anchored by weight, as the other leg is made free by the removal of that weight. we can see these same mechanics in boxing, and when we jab circling to our left.



    compare the anchoring of the front foot and the freeing of the back foot in both the swing and the jab; standing on one leg each time weight is given from one leg to the other. they are the same not because they are baseball or boxing mechanics. they are human body mechanics and they exist super to us. your characterization of a weight transfer as sloppy or throwing weight around is incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    Furthermore, there is no sidestep in the selected movement.
    The technique illustrated is a jab & pivot taught very commonly in amateur boxing; however, this one is actually done poorly.

    (i) Mayweather crosses his legs, temporarily compromising his balance.
    (ii) His lead leg is not placed outside of his opponents range, so even as he turn he is still in the target area.
    (iii) He does not finish in the fundamental position and has to lift his lead leg and resent before he can move or attack.
    that jab thrown by floyd mayweather, is the same jab that was thrown by ray robinson, and jersey joe walcott, and muhammad ali, and all the rest belonging to that group. to say that jab is wrong, is to say they are all wrong. to your point that the jab will cross your legs, angelo dundee was doing commentary for the first pernell whitaker vs jose luis ramirez fight, and he says, in only the way angelo dundee can say things, that whitaker is crossing his legs, that he doesnt like it, and that its going to get him knocked out. the irony there is that he trained muhammad ali, who like whitaker, and like many great fighters, crossed his legs. whitaker would go on to clearly win that fight in the eyes of most observers, but not to all, with the judges giving the fight to ramirez by split decision. maybe the judges thought, like maybe you think, that since he was crossing his legs the whole fight, that it was somehow working against him. the point i am driving at is that, crossing your legs may not be the boxing sin that some say it is, and possibly, something the trainers say to kids to scare them into fighting the way they want them to fight, instead of the way the kid really wants to fight, which i believe to be their right. you lean into their instincts - not away from them. to your other points, i think the thing youre missing there is that what you are ultimately trying to do with that jab, is turn yourself into a moving target and not a stationary target. you are leaving out the critical part that its harder to hit a moving target than it is to hit a target that is standing still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    There are two seperate techniques in play.
    1. Locche flicks a range finding jab.
    2. He uses a very simple step away, pushing off the front foot, the jab has no contribution to the reverse momentum.
    when you push off the front foot, the back foot must be free to move. if it cant it will act as a brake. the jab has no contribution to the reverse momentum - that comes from pushing off the front foot - but there can be no reverse momentum, and no pushing off the front foot, if the jab is not thrown with a weight transfer so that weight will end up on the front foot to free up the back foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny View Post
    I am not familiar with Joe Montana.

    The 50:50 weight distribution is optimal for movement - that's just bio-mechanics.
    the 60:40 weight distribution will retain weight on the rear hip and elevate the front shoulder to maximise the defense attributed of the fundamental position.

    If Niccolino Locche was one of the greatest defensive fighters ever then why is his style not taught to novice boxers?
    It is because he was an exception to the rule. Much like Roy Jones whose speed and reflexes made him singular.
    A boxer can be taught position, movement and technique.
    Athleticism, reflexes and natural ability cannot be taught.
    i think the thing that made niccolino locche renowned as a great defensive fighter is that he had this way of leaning in and giving you the target he wanted you to hit. he shortens your punches, so that when you try to hit him, all your punches are closer than they should be. in baseball they call that jamming the hitter. the pitcher throws the baseball at your hands so that the hitter cant hit it with the sweet spot on the bat head. well, he did that i think, and when he leaned in and he gave you that false target up close, he had all this space to pull away into that he knew your punches would not venture. thats why he looked so acrobatic when he made guys miss and why i think a lot of people think he is one of the best defensive fighters ever. it looked good. but what they are looking at is the effect - not the principle that lets it exist. i think the fighters that lean in like that, and its not just niccolino locche, understand and exploit the same principle.



    you know, if you ever watch a mongoose fight a cobra, they do the same thing. they give the cobra a false target, and they pull it away just like that. its actually pretty neat.
    Last edited by Yuzo; 05-10-2020 at 12:59 PM.

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