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Thread: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat
    Tyson won 10 rounds against Wilder, he only lost the rounds he got knocked down and still did not get the decision. That was a ring rusty contender, this time he will comprehensively out box and befuddle Wilder. Fury has shown he can take his right hand and get up.

    There is nothing stopping Fury and provided he does not get careless he will beat Wilder. If Fury could punch harder he would stop Wilder so he will settle for the comprehensive UD.
    Fury barely got by Wallin. I don't think his heart is in the game anymore. I expect Wilder to turn his lights out. I agree with you tho, that if Fury hit harder he could have stopped Wilder in the 1st fight.
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    "He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

    No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign
    I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

    Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.
    @Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!
    I got a feeling Fatboxingfan hates Rocky and thinks he was over rated.
    Je no think so monsieur.
    Former Undisputed 4 belt Prediction champion. Still P4P and People’s Champion.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat
    Tyson won 10 rounds against Wilder, he only lost the rounds he got knocked down and still did not get the decision. That was a ring rusty contender, this time he will comprehensively out box and befuddle Wilder. Fury has shown he can take his right hand and get up.

    There is nothing stopping Fury and provided he does not get careless he will beat Wilder. If Fury could punch harder he would stop Wilder so he will settle for the comprehensive UD.
    Fury barely got by Wallin. I don't think his heart is in the game anymore. I expect Wilder to turn his lights out. I agree with you tho, that if Fury hit harder he could have stopped Wilder in the 1st fight.
    Facing Wilder will mean Fury will bring a lot more focus and determination in his game than he did against Wallin.

    It is amazing what that right hand from Wilder will do to Tyson's concentration levels when they meet again.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    "He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

    No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign
    I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

    Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.
    @Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!
    Yes mon ami I've.

    One Number: those point about "former LHWs" -- is ridicule because Evander Holyfield was also former LHW, so what that's point? Second on that's same point: ALL those guy mentioned (Walcott, Charles, Moore) ALL OUTWEIGHED Marciano, in some cases by 20 pounds (Walcott weighed in at 198 those morning of the fight, but weighed 206 by fight time that night) Marciano weighed in at 184, that's 22 pounds difference! A massive quantite! And 37 years YOUNG Joe Louis -- 37 year!! Why is that old for a Heavyweight? Joe Louis won ALL 7 ROUNDS WITH HIS JAB AND STRAIGHT RIGHT AGAINST MARCIANO, 37 is not old. Foreman fighted until 49. Klitschasko until 41. Hollyfield until 45.

    Two Number:


    Rex Layne (34-1, 23 KOs), Lee Savold (104-35, 40 KOs) and Harry "Kid" Matthews (81-3, 33 KOs) were Top 5 ranked by Ring Magazine in 1951. Two outweighed Marciano by 25 pounds. And were same age as Marciano. Savold, Layne and Matthews nowadays would give ANY heavbyweight fits, fighting off the back foot and lateral movement, and great power and chins. Nobody talking about Rex Layne and Kid Matthews. Here is what that's Marciano did to they:

    SKIP TO 7:30 OF THIS VIDEO, UPDATED HD 16 mm TRANSFER, MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, 1952, MATTHEWS FIGHTING LIKE MAX SCHMELING-- Marcinao ALREADY had his left hand working, as you will see from 7:30, not "later in his career" but early on. Watch from 7:30


  5. #35
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    "He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

    No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign
    I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

    Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.
    @Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

    Yo Primo..... what are you trying to imply?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    "He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

    No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign
    I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

    Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.
    @Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!
    Yes mon ami I've.

    One Number: those point about "former LHWs" -- is ridicule because Evander Holyfield was also former LHW, so what that's point? Second on that's same point: ALL those guy mentioned (Walcott, Charles, Moore) ALL OUTWEIGHED Marciano, in some cases by 20 pounds (Walcott weighed in at 198 those morning of the fight, but weighed 206 by fight time that night) Marciano weighed in at 184, that's 22 pounds difference! A massive quantite! And 37 years YOUNG Joe Louis -- 37 year!! Why is that old for a Heavyweight? Joe Louis won ALL 7 ROUNDS WITH HIS JAB AND STRAIGHT RIGHT AGAINST MARCIANO, 37 is not old. Foreman fighted until 49. Klitschasko until 41. Hollyfield until 45.

    Two Number:


    Rex Layne (34-1, 23 KOs), Lee Savold (104-35, 40 KOs) and Harry "Kid" Matthews (81-3, 33 KOs) were Top 5 ranked by Ring Magazine in 1951. Two outweighed Marciano by 25 pounds. And were same age as Marciano. Savold, Layne and Matthews nowadays would give ANY heavbyweight fits, fighting off the back foot and lateral movement, and great power and chins. Nobody talking about Rex Layne and Kid Matthews. Here is what that's Marciano did to they:

    SKIP TO 7:30 OF THIS VIDEO, UPDATED HD 16 mm TRANSFER, MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, 1952, MATTHEWS FIGHTING LIKE MAX SCHMELING-- Marcinao ALREADY had his left hand working, as you will see from 7:30, not "later in his career" but early on. Watch from 7:30

    Je suis D’accord mon ami. Mange tout! As Del Boy would say.
    Former Undisputed 4 belt Prediction champion. Still P4P and People’s Champion.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Wilder is continue to getting so many FLAK because he probablement cannot fighting liek THIS:


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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Number One: Evander Holyfield was never Light Heavyweight champion he was the undisputed Cruiserweight champion.

    Number Two: When Joe Louis fought Rocky at 37 years of age that was old for a fighter in those days because he fought more often, against harder opposition and was losing most of his fights at the end of his career.

    Number Three: Archie Moore was a great light heavyweight and at 38 years of age still managed to knock down Rocky as did Walcott.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by p4pking View Post
    I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.
    My point with the iron chins is - they weren't the elite of their time yet I struggle to see Wilder beating them, however, bizarrely I give him more chance against Lennox, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe (*wait up, wait up). Wilder's power isn't up for debate, imo, he would have been dangerous in any era, however, ironing out Ortiz is quite simply not enough to be in a "greatest ever puncher" conversation (*for what it's worth I think the elite guys would've ironed him out 9 and half out of 10).

    There's about a dozen current heavyweights who are serious challenges for Wilder - Uysk, Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, Joshua, even Rivas, Chisora, Pulev, Kownacki, Hunter - maybe he blows them all away, great, he should currently start favourite over all, but just add some funking substance to the hype.

    Who anointed Ortiz superior to that lot? Who did he ever beat? (i'm not saying Ortiz is any worst than that lot either... apart from Uysk, of course, who is P4P level)
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Number One: Evander Holyfield was never Light Heavyweight champion he was the undisputed Cruiserweight champion.

    Number Two: When Joe Louis fought Rocky at 37 years of age that was old for a fighter in those days because he fought more often, against harder opposition and was losing most of his fights at the end of his career.

    Number Three: Archie Moore was a great light heavyweight and at 38 years of age still managed to knock down Rocky as did Walcott.
    Master,

    Number one, I didn't say Evander Holyfield had to be the champion of the light heavyweights I said he started out at 175 just like ezzard Charles and Archie Moore started out in that posters point I responded to. he was trying to say they started out so small and that therefore it was not such a big challenge for Marciano.

    number two Joe Louis had only lost one time when he fought Rocky Marciano so I don't know what you mean by he was losing a lot at the end of his career. I will give you this that 37 years old back then for some reason was considered ancient. I still think 37 is not so old at all for a heavyweight no matter what era we are talkin about

    Number three when have I ever disputed that Archie Moore was great? He's knocked down of Marciano is picture perfect. Marciano throws a wild and amateurish overhand right which which Archie more gracefully steps back just a few inches from and then fires a beautiful and picture perfect counter right hook sort of upper cut right on the button of Marciano's chin. Credit to Rocky Marciano for getting up at the count of two because that sharpshot marcio did not even see coming. he shook that punch off and I think he won the rest of the round and then he knocked moore down in the following around I believe for the first of four knockdowns.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him
    Apply shame. Apply fame. The crook and the flail.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him
    Floyd Patterson was before Liston and Marciano would have knocked out Patterson. Patterson was a great boxer but had an awful chin. Even if Marciano fought for a little bit longer, I doubt he would have fought long enough to meet Liston in the ring.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by p4pking View Post
    I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.
    My point with the iron chins is - they weren't the elite of their time yet I struggle to see Wilder beating them, however, bizarrely I give him more chance against Lennox, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe (*wait up, wait up). Wilder's power isn't up for debate, imo, he would have been dangerous in any era, however, ironing out Ortiz is quite simply not enough to be in a "greatest ever puncher" conversation (*for what it's worth I think the elite guys would've ironed him out 9 and half out of 10).

    There's about a dozen current heavyweights who are serious challenges for Wilder - Uysk, Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, Joshua, even Rivas, Chisora, Pulev, Kownacki, Hunter - maybe he blows them all away, great, he should currently start favourite over all, but just add some funking substance to the hype.

    Who anointed Ortiz superior to that lot? Who did he ever beat? (i'm not saying Ortiz is any worst than that lot either... apart from Uysk, of course, who is P4P level)
    No argument really, I'm more responding to the people who post as if he's tofu and couldn't possibly beat certain guys(who aren't mount olympus for a skull piece McCall). He has a chance of sparking right out damn near everyone who ever boxed and it's fun to watch. I'd like to see him fight any of those guys as well, or Ortiz do so for that matter. Usyk is also the only one Id be confident putting a dime on to win I think.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him
    Floyd Patterson was before Liston and Marciano would have knocked out Patterson. Patterson was a great boxer but had an awful chin. Even if Marciano fought for a little bit longer, I doubt he would have fought long enough to meet Liston in the ring.
    marciano retired at 31. in this very thread someone is saying "i still think 37 is not so old at all for a heavyweight no matter what era we are talkin about". liston harmed his career with his battles against the law that kept him out of the ring for two years. he returned in 1958 and by 1960 was ranked number one contender. marciano had been retired almost five years by then. guy was happy to beat up old men. liston would have beat him bad in 1956 or 57 if ever given the chance. and you are right, marciano would have knocked out patterson
    Apply shame. Apply fame. The crook and the flail.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Marciano would have dogged the piss out of Liston. Broke ribs from underneath. How was Liston going to land his jab with Marciano leaning back and to his right? Marciano would slip that jab 4 out of 5 times. Then step in inside Liston reach, and nail his left ring cage with Suzie Q.

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