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Thread: Present V Past

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Present V Past

    Every sport in history has progressed apart from boxing which has drastically regressed. It's a silly/lazy argument, for obvious reasons (like scoring, it's all in the eye of the beholder, no concrete facts and figures).

    I fully get the rose tinted glasses lark, i'm just as guilty, forever thinking so-and-so from the 90s would have murdered this or that "champ." But it's not the truth. The truth is, in all likelihood, the best fighters in any era would hold their own with each other.

    I think Lennox irons out Joshua but he lost to fighters who Joshua irons (obviously not McCall, impossible, but you get the drift).
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    Default Re: Present V Past

    Well, why arent cricket bowlers the fastest and best there has ever been? Same ball, same grass, same distance .... but (following previous arguments), bigger guys, better training, better science etc etc

    There are some good ones around, but nobody of the calibre of Holding, Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Lille's, Thompson, Larwood, Akhtar, Khan, Dev, Donald etc?


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    Default Re: Present V Past

    More importantly, why has nobody surpassed the penis size of the legendary King Dong?
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    Default Re: Present V Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Memphis View Post
    We've done this before of course and this isn't aimed at 'us' as such, but more so 'the other' boxing fans. You know the one's, Facebook, Twitter and all that lark. We're smarter than them I know we're not going to get any definitive answers but we rarely do on anything so why let that stop us?

    The inability to give present day fighters a hope in hell against their counterparts from eras past. Why is that? Genuine belief that past fighters were better? A desire to sound knowledgeable about past fighters? A complete inability to think for ones self so go with the status quo?

    Probably a bit of all three right?

    I got no problem with someone thinking a fighter from the past beats a present day one. I'll use the example I used in another thread. Joshua V Lewis. No issue at all with anyone saying Lewis wipes the floor with Joshua. Probably go along with that. But this idea that Lewis operated on an entirely different level to Joshua, Fury, Wilder etc... That's the nonsense part. What's even more nonsensical is the idea that that he had to operate on a different level because they all were back then. Crazy talk.

    As an aside. Hagler V Golovkin. Comes up all the time. You'll see them swarm all over Facebook and Twitter. Hagler eats Golovkin alive!!!!!! Get fucked! All the love in the World for Marvin. But ain't no way anyone is eating Golovkin alive. Beats him on points in a war of biblical proportions? I'm ok with that. But fuck off with this beats him easily or inside the distance.

    When looking at this I never look at A versus B. That's not the question being asked and besides that, we've already covered it by consensus. Lewis would beat Joshua. Done, easy. I look at A versus who B fought.

    The question is could Joshua, Fury, Wilder etc....have competed in Lewis's era. The answer is an easy yes. Replace Lennox Lewis with Anthony Joshua throughout Lewis's career. How different is it? Maybe loses the Klitschko fight? Maybe Holyfield? Aside from those two I don't see there being a whole lot of difference if any at all.

    The deck is always loaded against the contemporary fighter. Half a career stacked up against an illustrious, all time great fighters complete career, hardly fair is it? To compound it more, a serious set of rose tinted glasses are generally used to look at the past fighters record. Rank average fighters become good solid contenders. In this particular example we'll hear how good Bruno was, how tough Mercer was, how murderous a puncher Ruddock was.

    How would Joshua, Fury, Wilder, Whyte fair against Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson? You might get a generous to the new boys 3-1 score line. More likely a 4-0 sweep for the old boys. Again, the deck is loaded for the old boys, we're immediately seeing a peak (even though he was far from) Mike Tyson rampaging through the four of them on the same night.

    Stick the contemporary fighters into the mix in the late 90's early 00's. Would they dominate? No. Would they be out of their depth because the era back then was so good? Fuck off!



    Good thread..... topic never gets old.


    I don't think you went far enough, though. There are those who wax poetic about fighters from a century ago... the black and white, grainy film days. Maybe for one of the three reasons bolded above.

    If you only go as far back as Lewis, Bowe, Hagler, Hearns, etc..... you're going back to a not-so-distant past, at least in boxing terms. Styles and skills were very similar to what they are now. Same with the rules of the sport.

    But to your point about Joshua vs Lewis....... Golovkin vs Hagler......... totally agree. Hagler is an ATG, IMO. But to say he sweeps the floor with Golovkin is both a disrespect of GGG's skillset, and a curious lack of perspective.

    The part about the past I have a bit of a problem with is the one about these B&W, grainy heroes being superior to the fighters of today.... a view not held by a majority but certainly by some.

    Again... probably for one of the reasons stated above.... but I'll add one of my own.

    There's a certainly sanctity about some of the ATGs from the B&W grainy days that doesn't allow us to think they may have been out of their depth if placed into today's environment. That's where it becomes dicey.

    All we can do is really just compare those fighters in their own eras of dominance.

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    Default Re: Present V Past

    A lot of it is this curious inability to hold two thoughts in your head at the same time, as though everything were either one thing or the other and complexity and nuance do not exist. Diets, Lifestyles, Training,etc has changed massively but their impact is not some traceable constant line going up or down.

    Boxing itself has changed and that will favour some more than others. Take something as simple as the reduction of rounds. For a fighter whose stamina and ability to execute game plans over a longer time frame when an explosive fighter might well have emptied the well, those missing rounds will of course make an impact. The awareness and ability to prevent injuries is another difference in the modern game. Of course it is still there, and there will be few fighters who do not spend their careers fighting with unmentioned injuries that make them less than 100%, but the more sophisticated monitoring and treatment plans will help keep the modern fighter less damaged than guys who fought more often and many times for less money, exasperating existing injuries because they could not afford to take the break their body needed. We live in a world with far more distractions, but also less solid traditional support networks, (family, Religions, Community networks, institutions etc) and you can see that in the insecurity in many people now., despite all the emotional baggage of a life of violence being addressed more psychologically with counseling and 'being a man' no longer having to mean bottling it all up and taking it out on the bottle or some poor woman.

    A great fighter is a great fighter in any era, but you cannot pretend that fighters from different eras would cope just as well in either the past or future. I think you have to address it on a case by case basis.
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    Default Re: Present V Past

    There are so many variables between the past and present that it is a really hard thing to compare. Depending on how deep you are going, it is not as simple as picking out 1 fighter from this night to another fighter on another night.

    Things like length of training camps, how long before previous bouts, weigh in etc. Even dedication and focus. Some fighters today have many distractions outside the ring. How would an old timer react to today's society and vice versa.
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    Default Re: Present V Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    There are so many variables between the past and present that it is a really hard thing to compare. Depending on how deep you are going, it is not as simple as picking out 1 fighter from this night to another fighter on another night.

    Things like length of training camps, how long before previous bouts, weigh in etc. Even dedication and focus. Some fighters today have many distractions outside the ring. How would an old timer react to today's society and vice versa.
    Agreed. I try to see how certain fighters would fit into other eras. For example, for as great as Mayweather was, could he have been considered as great back in the 40’s or 50’s? I say that because he has a long history of hand problems and he wouldn’t get the rest he needed. If his hands started to be a problem, he would start to lose fights that he shouldn’t.

    In an opposite view, maybe some fighters who were very durable had much more of an advantage because they were able to keep fighting at a good pace throughout their career and could catch many great fighters on bad days. Maybe these old durable fighters wouldn’t do as well if that advantage was gone because their opponents always got training camps to come in in tip top shape.

    I think all eras have their advantages and disadvantages. One thing I’ve heard that I like is that great athletes find a way to win no matter what. So I think great fighters in any era would most likely be successful in all eras.

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