Correlation does not prove causation
Correlation does not prove causation
Sad times that the general pop cannot comprehend that you cannot legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them. It will fail in every court of law. I distinctly remember during several pre-law classes at Rutgers College in New Brunswick, New Jersey that this is an all-too-common error in thinking and basically falls square into the category of a questionable-cause logical fallacy.
Sorry to burst the general population's bubble about that. Hopefully they study the concepts well and master them.
What a crock of shit.
You are presenting well documented facts with checkable timelines and mountains of evidence as though they were fanciful invented notions. Your own argument is a fallacy in and of itself .
There is ample evidence to prove both factual and legal causation and to prosecute on the basis of both conduct and result crimes.
Nobody has to prove that Trump actions and words caused the rioting. All they have to establish is that without his months ..in fact..years of words and actions that the rioting would not have happened. That fact is pretty indisputable.
FACTUAL CAUSATION - But for the repeated actions of Trump urging on unrest the attack would not have happened.
You are pretending that this is some psuedo scientific ignorance like The Bell Curve when the reality is the words and actions of Trump inspired crimes all over your country.
El Kabong's long standing lie" There is no such thing as Hate Speech "
is not defense at all.
Words are everything. The entire legal system and your countries constitution relies on the power of words.
It is not everyone else in the public who is ignorant, it is you and El Kabong and all the other fucking YouTube legal experts who have not spent even one day working in a system that they have no respect for anyway.
Ok, no Kool-Aid references.
Let's get something clear first. I'm not asking or pretending Trump be charged for the mass murder committed by the El Paso nutjob.
What I AM saying... and I think it's perfectly reasonable... is that Trump as POTUS holds a MASSIVE amount of influence over his supporters. Case in point... the drinking bleach to combat COVID story.
Never have I said it was Trump's fault that some people (and I use the term loosely) actually ingested bleach and either died or became very sick.
I'm objective enough to opine that while it was an irresponsible comment by a POTUS who has ZILCH knowledge about medical issues.... he didn't MAKE anyone drink bleach and die. Those fools did it to themselves.
However, going back to Trump's influence.
Trump spent MONTHS working people up in the States about a "supposed invasion" that never really materialized. You can talk about arrangements with Mexico and all that other stuff.
Fact of the matter is that Trump used his fear-mongering tactics to work people into a hate-filled lather regarding immigrants.
Somewhere in that group... there are nutjobs close to the edge... and all they need is a gentle nudge from their Cult Leader.... Commander-in-Chief.... to go over that edge.
With great authority comes great responsibility.
You CANNOT incite violence and then sit back with that stupid, smug look on your face (Trump's face, not yours) like saying..... "Who..... ME??" It's SICKENING coming from the leader of the free world (in title only).
My standards for President remain HIGH.
I'd rather have someone up there who I respect as a person, even if they make a mistake every now and then...... than an absolute jackass of a human being who cares about no one but himself.
YOU YOURSELF shouted about the blood on the hands of Trump by minimizing the pandemic from the very beginning... possibly costing many people their lives.
What the HELL has changed between then and now that has turned you around YET AGAIN 180 degrees??
what starts to get harder to enforce legally though is and let's say I agree with you on this as well that there is always that outer Fringe of people who just need a little nudging before they go off like a lunatic and do something crazy. Hell I can even find a way to agree with Larry that words do matter. But it becomes kind of a slippery slope. Even when one is in a position of power like president of the United States or lower positions for example in sports when they accused Mike Tyson of being a bad example for the youth, I mean nobody is disputing there are these Fringe people on the outside who just need a little nudging. But it is hard to draw the line between just how much a human being has the right to say and just how much it is going to give that little nudge to somebody somewhere at some time and just how causative it really was. I mean of course I agree that the safest thing in the world is to never ever speak any kind of insightful language ever and then nobody anywhere ever could ever make the argument that you may be influenced somebody somewhere to do something crazy. that's an extreme example but of course that would be the safest route and I don't deny it. It's good debating this with you Tito, we are getting much more out of our conversations like this I think. 🙂
You will likely never have to deal with being at the sharp end of it (hate speech) or being a victim of it (hate crime), but for most decent people that is still no reason to deny its existence or impact upon millions.
No, I know I won't, because I don't believe in it.
Who do 'hate speech' and 'hate crime' laws protect? Why do we have them? I'll be impressed if you answer at all, but if you're bright then you should already know where this is going and if you do I don't reckon you will respond.
There should be 1 set of laws for ALL people because we are ALL equal as humans.
This is what i mean about the idealogical nonsense you have been shoving down everyones throats here for years. You try and bend the world around your own stupidity rather than make the effort to educate yourself.
Being deserving of equal respect is not the same thing as being equal. Just more of your simplistic PC nonsense. Men and Women are not equal. Adults and Children are not equal. An Employer and an Employee are not equal. A disabled person and an able bodied person are not equal.
You try telling somebody in a wheelchair, don't worry about the 40 steps up to the entrance to the building, because we are all equal. We are not equal and people have for years made any excuse to avoid facing that. It matters not that Universal access benefits able bodied people too. Parents with puchchairs, delivery personnel with trolleys, elderly people with mobility issues, all end up with one less barrier when ramps and alternative to steps are included but all over the world buildings are still going up under the premise that it is not something that needs to be considered. That is what your kind of reductive reasoning is responsible for.
You are pretending that crimes carried out against people for things they have no control over should not be evaluated at all, and that the kind of hate speech that normalised those kind of crimes be ignored too.
So no queer or Paki bashing, No such thing as racist stereotyping as far as you are concerned? No wonder you think nothing of saying thing like Spergy bastard yourself . No wonder that TIC feels emboldened by you giving him the green light to adopt it and Freedoms constant sick antisemitism did not even raise an eyebrow from you.
I know it exists because i spent over ten years involved in legal cases prosecuting it. I know like many what it is like to deal with people staring at those i love every day as though they were freaks, that is an uncomfortable fact you seem unwilling to process, but it is a fact just the same.
What you believe seems to have very little in common with the real world or reality at all.
Beanz, seriously, which item in your household is more dear to you: your clutching pearls or your fainting couch?
So it's "stupid" to treat everyone as my equal?
How are those folks not equal?
I'd probably tell that person in the wheelchair I'd help them up and/or they are free to sue whoever owns that building to bring it up to code as it's got to have handicap access at least in America it does.
I think crimes carried out against people for things they have no control over happen all the time and that in addressing the consequences and punishments of those crimes MOTIVE and PREMEDITATION are more important than anything else.
I'm sorry, I view "Queers" and "Pakis" as PEOPLE and if you assault a person out of the clear blue or because they are this or that or because you just had an argument with them and you turned it physical, then you should be held accountable for it. Is that wrong? Speech normalizes physical assaults does it now Mr. "punch a Nazi"? I mean YOU don't even believe that shit in practice, else you wouldn't say half the shit you say to me, unless of course you think I'm on some different level than you and it's ok to do.
Racial stereotyping isn't illegal now and if it were made illegal how would it be stopped? You stereotype people racially.
No, I don't think anything of calling someone "spergy", there's multiple definitions of the word and how I use it vs how it's taken can have a really big difference between them. I caused TIC to feel a certain way? @TIC is that true? I emboldened @Freedom? Those two are responsible for themselves and their views, I'm responsible for ME (and my child). Or....are YOU responsible for Antifa violence? If this whole view you have is good one way then certainly if you turn it around it's just as good and fair, or is it different?
I'm sorry that's been the case for you with the legal cases and all. I appreciate you fairly responding to the question I posed, and I am actually quite impressed you did so. THAT is maybe the start of an actual worthwhile discussion for once.
Well if the real world is anything like this:
Equity Through Accuracy: Changes to Our Hate Map
In pursuit of a more accurate and more just hate map, the Intelligence Project (IP) has committed to collapsing the Black Separatist listing. We will still monitor these groups, but we will be transferring them to hate ideologies, including antisemitism, that better describe the harm their rhetoric inflicts.
This decision comes after many internal and external conversations. A change in the way the map is structured will better capture the power dynamics endemic to white supremacy. Black separatist groups land on the SPLC’s hate map because they propagate antisemitic, anti-LGBTQ and male supremacist views, not because they oppose a white supremacist power structure.
Then yeah I'm really getting more and more out of touch with reality & "the real world"....and I'll continue to do so, because a person is a person is a person no matter the religion, race, sexual orientation, or gender. And I also still consider trans to be a bit mental, but if someone is 18 and wants to do whatever they want to do, have at it (unless it's contact sports vs women, and I'll oppose the hell out of that).
Good chat, I appreciate it Beanz
I believe a person should be allowed to say or write ANYTHING, and that the "victim" has the right to protest against the words used, and that the matter -- if pursued -- should be resolved in a court of law: what were the damages? if it can be proven, then so be it, that will be the legal decision at that point. I encourage anyone to pursue legal action if they believe they were harmed in any way. But to try to write laws about political correctness about what is acceptable speech, that has been why humanity is in a fast decline since 1990. It really started about that time. POlitical correctness, forbidden speech, etc.
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