RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler

[Primo Carnera]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Absolutely fair. But would you start a thread about a Boxer who has just passed away and simply put “Legend”.
Then a few years later, question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys? Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?
Yep, “Legend”.

why wouldn't i start a thread about a boxer who has just passed away & simply put "legend" when i think he's a legend?

"Then a few years later"
i've already said that i searched & the only other thread on the front page was called marvin haggler, the site has been having issues for weeks, sorry that i'm not prepared to wait for minutes on end to search through each page to try & find another marvin hagler thread to post in

"question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys"
once again as i've mentioned several times already in this thread, so i'm not sure if you are now ignoring that intentionally, i am not questioning marvin's legacy. i've already stated that in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight. i'm asking if marvin gets a pass for fighting smaller guys, for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges

"Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?"
yes these smaller guys are all time greats but as i've asked previously & no one has answered, where do you rate these smaller guys all time at middleweight?

yep, marvin is a legend

If asking “if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys” isn’t questioning Marvin’s legacy, then I don’t know what is!

[TIC]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Absolutely fair. But would you start a thread about a Boxer who has just passed away and simply put “Legend”.
Then a few years later, question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys? Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?
Yep, “Legend”.

why wouldn't i start a thread about a boxer who has just passed away & simply put "legend" when i think he's a legend?

"Then a few years later"
i've already said that i searched & the only other thread on the front page was called marvin haggler, the site has been having issues for weeks, sorry that i'm not prepared to wait for minutes on end to search through each page to try & find another marvin hagler thread to post in

"question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys"
once again as i've mentioned several times already in this thread, so i'm not sure if you are now ignoring that intentionally, i am not questioning marvin's legacy. i've already stated that in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight. i'm asking if marvin gets a pass for fighting smaller guys, for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges

"Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?"
yes these smaller guys are all time greats but as i've asked previously & no one has answered, where do you rate these smaller guys all time at middleweight?

yep, marvin is a legend

If asking “if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys” isn’t questioning Marvin’s legacy, then I don’t know what is!

you conveniently left of the most relevant part of my question "for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges"

you also completely ignored where i said "in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight"

if you think marvin fought the biggest challenges over the last five to six years of his career, that's fine we can agree to disagree

if you think marvin was too small to move up, that is also fine we can agree to disagree

but your misrepresentations show you hold a bias & are not interested in an honest discussion

[Spicoli]

I guess I just can't get my head around still finding round about fault or double talk about Hagler avoiding bigger challenges while at the same time identifying he completely cleaned out his division, then remained active facing back to back to back #1 ranked challengers, set division records and only then fought 3 legends. It's like taking a two way swipe, "Hagler didn't take bigger challenges" and Duran, Hearns and Leonard were "smaller". Even though every single one of them would go on to win championships at middle or Spr middle or Lt heavy. Just seems to make the smaller talk a nonstarter. I'll stick to my take in that zero pass for Hagler is needed simply because he didn't jump what is two divisions today for a fight no one was talking about. The crazy thing is that if he was held to today's standards or lack thereof, Hagler could have simply sought out lesser title holders to cherry pick a belt all in the name of running around being hailed as some "multi division champion" and some would have eaten it up. Guys today get away with murder doing that . Cough. Different times now.

On a side I'm just going to spend spare time trying to think of legends who stayed at their natural weight range on the very top/championship scene for the duration of careers. It's actually quite the distinction.

[TitoFan]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Maybe I'm just more cynical than most.

nah it's because someone lives rent free in your head. it's very rare these days to find you posting about much else when talking boxing

Nah. It's because I have an advanced Bullshit Meter that detects bogus arguments made for ulterior motives. Especially those so sloppily hidden.

[TIC]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Maybe I'm just more cynical than most.

nah it's because someone lives rent free in your head. it's very rare these days to find you posting about much else when talking boxing

Nah. It's because I have an advanced Bullshit Meter that detects bogus arguments made for ulterior motives. Especially those so sloppily hidden.

nah you're just a boxing casual these days, i doubt you watch much boxing at all these days

[TIC]

avoiding bigger challenges while at the same time identifying he completely cleaned out his division

then remained active facing back to back to back #1 ranked challengers, set division records

and only then fought 3 legends.

"Hagler didn't take bigger challenges" and Duran, Hearns and Leonard were "smaller".

Even though every single one of them would go on to win championships at middle or Spr middle or Lt heavy. Just seems to make the smaller talk a nonstarter.

I'll stick to my take in that zero pass for Hagler is needed simply because he didn't jump what is two divisions today

for a fight no one was talking about.

Hagler could have simply sought out lesser

On a side I'm just going to spend spare time trying to think of legends who stayed at their natural weight range on the very top/championship scene for the duration of careers. It's actually quite the distinction.

he had basically cleaned out middleweight with the vito rematch, marvin chose to remain at middleweight to get his number of defenses up & await the big purses that came with the names below him

those back to back number one challenges who for defense numbers & purses, nothing wrong with that. moving up would have been a bigger challenge

three legends, yes, but none of them had done anything substantial at middle. two sanctioning bodies didn't want the ray fight to happen

making a run at light heavy would have been a bigger challenge than fighting roberto, tommy & ray

didn't every single one of them not start at lower divisions than marvin? just because the went up higher doesn't mean they didn't start out at lower weights. just seems to make the marvin was a small middleweight talk a nonstarter

that's fine for you to stick to your zero pass needed, i disagree. it's not that he simply didn't move up, that is part of it. he chose to stick around at middleweight & avoided herol & mike for the ray fight, then sat on the sidelines waiting on a rematch

i still find it strange that no one was talking about a potential michael spinks v marvin fight

marvin did stick around making defenses & collecting purses, instead of looking for bigger challenges

when you look at those legends who stayed at their natural weight or the duration of careers, take note of the last five to six years of their careers. it would be interesting to see what type of opposition they fought. might make for a another thread about what fighters finished their careers strongest

[Primo Carnera]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Absolutely fair. But would you start a thread about a Boxer who has just passed away and simply put “Legend”.
Then a few years later, question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys? Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?
Yep, “Legend”.

why wouldn't i start a thread about a boxer who has just passed away & simply put "legend" when i think he's a legend?

"Then a few years later"
i've already said that i searched & the only other thread on the front page was called marvin haggler, the site has been having issues for weeks, sorry that i'm not prepared to wait for minutes on end to search through each page to try & find another marvin hagler thread to post in

"question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys"
once again as i've mentioned several times already in this thread, so i'm not sure if you are now ignoring that intentionally, i am not questioning marvin's legacy. i've already stated that in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight. i'm asking if marvin gets a pass for fighting smaller guys, for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges

"Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?"
yes these smaller guys are all time greats but as i've asked previously & no one has answered, where do you rate these smaller guys all time at middleweight?

yep, marvin is a legend

If asking “if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys” isn’t questioning Marvin’s legacy, then I don’t know what is!

you conveniently left of the most relevant part of my question "for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges"

you also completely ignored where i said "in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight"

if you think marvin fought the biggest challenges over the last five to six years of his career, that's fine we can agree to disagree

if you think marvin was too small to move up, that is also fine we can agree to disagree

but your misrepresentations show you hold a bias & are not interested in an honest discussion

No misrepresentation Mate, just pointing out the main part of what you said. I can’t see how that’s not honest.
If you think starting a tribute thread with “legend” then critiquing why he fought smaller guys isn’t at best hypocritical, at worst having a hidden agenda, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Primo Carnera]

I guess I just can't get my head around still finding round about fault or double talk about Hagler avoiding bigger challenges while at the same time identifying he completely cleaned out his division, then remained active facing back to back to back #1 ranked challengers, set division records and only then fought 3 legends. It's like taking a two way swipe, "Hagler didn't take bigger challenges" and Duran, Hearns and Leonard were "smaller". Even though every single one of them would go on to win championships at middle or Spr middle or Lt heavy. Just seems to make the smaller talk a nonstarter. I'll stick to my take in that zero pass for Hagler is needed simply because he didn't jump what is two divisions today for a fight no one was talking about. The crazy thing is that if he was held to today's standards or lack thereof, Hagler could have simply sought out lesser title holders to cherry pick a belt all in the name of running around being hailed as some "multi division champion" and some would have eaten it up. Guys today get away with murder doing that . Cough. Different times now.

On a side I'm just going to spend spare time trying to think of legends who stayed at their natural weight range on the very top/championship scene for the duration of careers. It's actually quite the distinction.

Nail on the head! 👍

[TIC]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Absolutely fair. But would you start a thread about a Boxer who has just passed away and simply put “Legend”.
Then a few years later, question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys? Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?
Yep, “Legend”.

why wouldn't i start a thread about a boxer who has just passed away & simply put "legend" when i think he's a legend?

"Then a few years later"
i've already said that i searched & the only other thread on the front page was called marvin haggler, the site has been having issues for weeks, sorry that i'm not prepared to wait for minutes on end to search through each page to try & find another marvin hagler thread to post in

"question his legacy by asking if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys"
once again as i've mentioned several times already in this thread, so i'm not sure if you are now ignoring that intentionally, i am not questioning marvin's legacy. i've already stated that in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight. i'm asking if marvin gets a pass for fighting smaller guys, for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges

"Even though these “smaller guys” are all time greats?"
yes these smaller guys are all time greats but as i've asked previously & no one has answered, where do you rate these smaller guys all time at middleweight?

yep, marvin is a legend

If asking “if he gets a pass for fighting smaller guys” isn’t questioning Marvin’s legacy, then I don’t know what is!

you conveniently left of the most relevant part of my question "for bigger money over the last five to six years of his career, instead of looking for bigger challenges"

you also completely ignored where i said "in my opinion he was already a legend before the roberto duran fight"

if you think marvin fought the biggest challenges over the last five to six years of his career, that's fine we can agree to disagree

if you think marvin was too small to move up, that is also fine we can agree to disagree

but your misrepresentations show you hold a bias & are not interested in an honest discussion

No misrepresentation Mate, just pointing out the main part of what you said. I can’t see how that’s not honest.
If you think starting a tribute thread with “legend” then critiquing why he fought smaller guys isn’t at best hypocritical, at worst having a hidden agenda, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

total misrepresentation on your part. the main part of what i said was towards the end of his career. go back & look at my original post. you're being very dishonest

as i've said before, one should be able to critique parts of a fighters career without being critical of the whole body of work, nothing hypocritical about that. there's no hidden agenda but what has been shown is that you hold a bias & it limits your logic in this discussion, shown by your strawman arguments about canelo, hidden agenda's, old threads, questioning marvin's legacy et cetera that you've created to attack rather than the actual discussion

[Master]

Everybody has opinions/bias and Hagler last 5/6 years stands against any other great boxers.

Spinks would have been a big challenge for Hagler. Probably Michael would have won but just because Hagler did not go up does not detract from his career. Facing Duran, Hearns and Leonard are better opponents put together than taking on Spinks at that time.

[TitoFan]

There is no harm in Tic having the discussion. It looks like Spinks moved up to heavyweight after he cleaned out his division.

Every fighter chases the money including the old time greats like Grebb. Legacy is not the decisive factor no matter what the boxers may say.

Maybe I'm just more cynical than most.

nah it's because someone lives rent free in your head. it's very rare these days to find you posting about much else when talking boxing

Nah. It's because I have an advanced Bullshit Meter that detects bogus arguments made for ulterior motives. Especially those so sloppily hidden.

nah you're just a boxing casual these days, i doubt you watch much boxing at all these days

You know, oddly enough... you're partly right.
I DON'T watch much boxing these days.

I watched more boxing back before fawning groupies such as yourself became enamored of coddled, manufactured divas like Ginger... and Instagram princesses like PrincessRy.

Before boxing became even more unwatchable with all these circus fights with cherry-pickers like Ginger wanting to starve cruiserweights to fight for bogus titles.

Before being a highly publicized punk became more important than working hard for a good career.

Before manufactured divas like Ginger called themselves The Face of Boxing.

Before YouTubers and MMA dudes thought boxing was all about shortcuts.

Yeah.
I watched more boxing back then.
Then boxing became full of fawning groupies such as yourself.

[TIC]

just like i said, you're a boxing casual these days & your comments show it. you do a disservice to all the boxers grinding away. maybe if you focused on boxing & not individuals you wouldn't have so much resentment. good fights are good fights & you're missing out

[TIC]

i found this article
https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/198...2257438670800/

a quote from michael from the story 'Marvin, here I am. If you want a big payday, come on and get me. Marvin is awesome and so am I. I want to see Marvin come right up and meet the Spinks Jinx.'

this was after the oscar rivadeneyra fight, i find it extremely hard to believe michael called out marvin & the boxing community didn't talk about that fight

[Spicoli]

avoiding bigger challenges while at the same time identifying he completely cleaned out his division

then remained active facing back to back to back #1 ranked challengers, set division records

and only then fought 3 legends.

"Hagler didn't take bigger challenges" and Duran, Hearns and Leonard were "smaller".

Even though every single one of them would go on to win championships at middle or Spr middle or Lt heavy. Just seems to make the smaller talk a nonstarter.

I'll stick to my take in that zero pass for Hagler is needed simply because he didn't jump what is two divisions today

for a fight no one was talking about.

Hagler could have simply sought out lesser

On a side I'm just going to spend spare time trying to think of legends who stayed at their natural weight range on the very top/championship scene for the duration of careers. It's actually quite the distinction.

he had basically cleaned out middleweight with the vito rematch, marvin chose to remain at middleweight to get his number of defenses up & await the big purses that came with the names below him

those back to back number one challenges who for defense numbers & purses, nothing wrong with that. moving up would have been a bigger challenge

three legends, yes, but none of them had done anything substantial at middle. two sanctioning bodies didn't want the ray fight to happen

making a run at light heavy would have been a bigger challenge than fighting roberto, tommy & ray

didn't every single one of them not start at lower divisions than marvin? just because the went up higher doesn't mean they didn't start out at lower weights. just seems to make the marvin was a small middleweight talk a nonstarter

that's fine for you to stick to your zero pass needed, i disagree. it's not that he simply didn't move up, that is part of it. he chose to stick around at middleweight & avoided herol & mike for the ray fight, then sat on the sidelines waiting on a rematch

i still find it strange that no one was talking about a potential michael spinks v marvin fight

marvin did stick around making defenses & collecting purses, instead of looking for bigger challenges

when you look at those legends who stayed at their natural weight or the duration of careers, take note of the last five to six years of their careers. it would be interesting to see what type of opposition they fought. might make for a another thread about what fighters finished their careers strongest

Neither had McCallum, far from it at the time. But in this instance now it's ok if Hagler faced a "smaller" fighter right? One far less established, widely known, battle tested, or career accomplished overall compared to Duran, Hearns and Leonard. And Hearns was actually top ranked at 160 when he faced Marvin and I'll never be convinced Mike was a bigger threat to Hagler than Tommy.

[TitoFan]

just like i said, you're a boxing casual these days & your comments show it. you do a disservice to all the boxers grinding away. maybe if you focused on boxing & not individuals you wouldn't have so much resentment. good fights are good fights & you're missing out

I unearthed your real motive for dissing Hagler, and you're understandably embarrassed and upset.