How good was Deontay Wilder?

[Spicoli]

Reminds me of a heavyweight gumbo of maybe a Briggs-Ruddock-Stewart. Said it back when he was flailing away on Telemundo undercards Wilder is the walking example of how much manufacturing, some punch and stacking numbers plays a part in a road to the top. Especially when it comes to kos. As with all records you can dig into not how many ko's you have but who are you knocking out? Just saying there on literal 175 guys off 6 yr retirements on there and at least 4 Macy day floats. Guy has more record padding than a mattress factory. But one thing I was clownishly wrong about was the man's courage and true confidence. For all the flaws and the cringe 'wrastlin type rantings and lack of fundamental boxing ability, Wilder walks the walk when the chips are down. And that you cannot manufacture or pretend. Does he reign and run row on names above no not for me. I don't put much stock in size or weight given his own smallish frame on stilts. But I have no doubt he would genuinely try to take their heads clean off before he fell. He and Joyce would actually be a really good fight.

[Master]

I started the thread because Wilder’s best days are behind him and do not see him become a champion again.

Joe Louis destroyed the majority of his opponents during his reign and did not struggle or get wobbled as Wilder did.

The 10 defences, being champion for just over 5 years which is the 12th longest reign and having a 97% knockout rate is more to do with the lack of depth at the division than how good Wilder is.

I feel he would have got beaten by all on the list except maybe Rocky. Liston breaks him down with his jab and knocks him out.

I do not see him become a champion in the 1970’s or 1990’s.

[mikeeod]

Interesting question and interesting way to pose that question. I'm not sure you are asking how "good" Deontay is/was as much as you are asking how he would have faired against the top heavies in the sport. The difference, as I see it, is that one fighter can be "better"- more skilled, versatile, fundamentals...etc., but still lose to a more athletic, mentally strong, harder punching...etc., opponent. Essentially, I can practice my fundamentals in basketball daily, be extremely skilled on defense and offense (shooting, dribbling, passing...etc.), and get blown out by a 6'9" player who rarely practices and relies on his athleticism, height, explosiveness...etc., to overcome my skill advantage. So, I'm technically a "better" player in that I can do more but his physical advantages are too much for me to overcome.

If we look at it in terms of good being skill- Deontay comes in behind pretty much everyone on that list as he really only has a straight right (his jab, right uppercut...etc. are used sparingly at best) and absolutely ZERO defense, footwork...etc. That being said- the guy is mentally tough, has heart, is VERY TALL, and has a cannon for a right hand. I don't see the MUCH smaller Marciano surviving a solid right and I don't see him having the defense to avoid it for 12 rounds. Most of those older fighters like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Joe Louis were LIGHT YEARS "better" than Wilder, but I'm not sure anyone outside of Joe Louis (and maybe Jack Dempsey) would be able to overcome Deontay's size advantage. Liston was a bear and extremely skilled with a great chin, so I agree that Sonny would use superior skills and physical strength to break Deontay down over 7 or 8 rounds.

The crew from the 70s is interesting- I think Ali is way too fast and good to let that right hand land often, and Wilder's horrible footwork would make him look awkward in there. Foreman is a beast and would walk through bombs to push Deontay around and literally beat him up- you had to be mobile to beat that version of George (and the older one as well, I guess). Joe Frazier is interesting because of the size difference and seeing what Foreman's bombs did to Joe- the difference I see is that Wilder won't have the physical strength that George had and won't be able to keep Joe at the distance necessary for his big right to land. Frazier was also a murderous body puncher and inside fighter and I can see him breaking Wilder down and stopping him in the later rounds. I think Deontay stops Ken Norton (he wasn't his best vs. punchers), Jerry Quarry...etc.

In the 80s I see Holmes being too good and having too many options (great chin, defense, speed, jab...etc.) for Deontay. I'm not sure he would stop Wilder but I think that Holmes would make him look silly as there would be a noticeable gulf in terms of skill between the two- and Holmes did the resurrection routine against Ernie Shavers like Tyson Fury did vs Deontay. Tyson would be similar to Joe Frazier in my opinion, but a little faster and harder hitter (ESPECIALLY with the right)- I think he gets inside and brutalizes Wilder who wouldn't be able to use short hooks/uppercuts inside and/or keep Mike outside with a hard jab. Depending on the night he faced them, I also don't see Deontay beating Dokes, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker, and Page- as long as those guys came in having trained and not high on coke.

The 90s crew is interesting- Lewis, Bowe, and Evander are too much for Deontay. Think of the skills those three had and the various ways they won fights and then ask if Wilder could do anything those three couldn't other than being 6'9" and possessing the most devastating right hand in history. On the right night Ray Mercer is a horrible match up for Deontay, as are David Tua and George Foreman. That being said, I feel like Wilder matches up well against Tommy Morrison, Herbie Hide, and ESPECIALLY Michael Moorer.

For the current crop- I think Usyk and Fury (obviously) are too good for him and would only lose to him off a lucky shot. I don't know Joyce so can't comment on that match up, but feel that Whyte is equally inconsistent as a fighter and around the same level as Deontay. I wouldn't bet on that fight or be surprised if either guy won. AJ would be a great fight and style match up- I still think that AJ is the "better" fighter (athlete) and would win early vs Deontay, but Deontay has the mentality of a fighter and would eventually catch AJ to stop him. I would pay $100 for that fight easy- despite both losing and showing their limitations.

So, to sum my POV up- Wilder is not a "good" fighter, but he is mentally tough, tall, and has a big enough punch to make every fight interesting and dangerous for any opponent. I do feel that he benefitted from a not great heavyweight division and would not have been a top guy in previous decades.

[TitoFan]

I like how you went through each decade. Good job.

I'll go back to Liston. Not to underrate the guy, but Sonny pretty preyed on opposition that was basically scared shitless of him. Ergo, his destruction of guys like Floyd Patterson.
But Liston was a plodder. And then there's Wilder's size and cannon of a right hand like you say. Anything's possible in the ring... but I see Liston being tailormade for someone like Wilder. I think Wilder stops him with a huge right in the early to mid rounds.

From the 70's, no way Wilder comes anywhere close to beating the likes of Foreman or Ali. Frazier... it depends... but a leaping left hook from Smokin' Joe and Wilder goes bye-bye. Frazier was super busy... and that might make all the difference.

By the 90's, heavyweights were already getting bigger and heavier. As you said... Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield... way out of Wilder's league.

Contrary to what some here have said, I don't think Wilder's necessarily done. He doesn't match up well with Fury. That much is clear. But assuming he's still got the hunger to be champion, he matches up pretty well with most other HW's out there. People dump on his lack of boxing skills... but I think he's tried mightily to fix some of the wrongs. He's teachable, even if not 100% so. Today's crop of HW's aren't anything to write home about. You get past the Furys and the Joshuas... there isn't much else out there. Someone like Andy Ruiz would be an interesting test. If the Ruiz who beat Joshua in their 1st fight shows up... it's highly likely Wilder gets beat. But with Ruiz you never know.

One thing Wilder has proven is heart. And that counts for a lot.

[Master]

Maybe I am underestimating Wilder because of his lack of technical skills and unduly ignoring his physical advantages. I started the thread with Wilder as his weight is comparable with the older fighters.

The same question could be asked about AJ against these past great fighters.

[Spicoli]

I like how you went through each decade. Good job.

I'll go back to Liston. Not to underrate the guy, but Sonny pretty preyed on opposition that was basically scared shitless of him. Ergo, his destruction of guys like Floyd Patterson.
But Liston was a plodder. And then there's Wilder's size and cannon of a right hand like you say. Anything's possible in the ring... but I see Liston being tailormade for someone like Wilder. I think Wilder stops him with a huge right in the early to mid rounds.

From the 70's, no way Wilder comes anywhere close to beating the likes of Foreman or Ali. Frazier... it depends... but a leaping left hook from Smokin' Joe and Wilder goes bye-bye. Frazier was super busy... and that might make all the difference.

By the 90's, heavyweights were already getting bigger and heavier. As you said... Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield... way out of Wilder's league.

Contrary to what some here have said, I don't think Wilder's necessarily done. He doesn't match up well with Fury. That much is clear. But assuming he's still got the hunger to be champion, he matches up pretty well with most other HW's out there. People dump on his lack of boxing skills... but I think he's tried mightily to fix some of the wrongs. He's teachable, even if not 100% so. Today's crop of HW's aren't anything to write home about. You get past the Furys and the Joshuas... there isn't much else out there. Someone like Andy Ruiz would be an interesting test. If the Ruiz who beat Joshua in their 1st fight shows up... it's highly likely Wilder gets beat. But with Ruiz you never know.

One thing Wilder has proven is heart. And that counts for a lot.

That seems like one of the easier ones to make Wilder v Ruiz. They were jawing back and forth about a fight before Andy returned v Arreola and thinking about it pretty interesting styles mix up. Love to see what Ruiz could do with the volume and inside mixing and perfect for Wilder to display that 1-2 and learned patience at range in spots. Then again Ruiz was dropped hard by the other side of Arreola so exactly how urgent would he be to get inside on Wilders eraser. Biggest question for me on Wilder is that grey matter now. Losing is one thing but back to back knockout losses at 36 is a totally different animal.

[SlimTrae]

HW division has always been the most suspect.

Let's Take Foreman as mentioned- This is a guy whose mental makeup-broke down. After Ali he was suspect- & we are not talking the fast fleeing Clay, rather the dude who invented laying on the ropes as some scientific accomplishment.

When Lyle dropped him again and again- While a powerful puncher- I can't say his right is more lethal than Wilder's. So if Ron dropped Lyle- as Cosell stated "This isnt artistic, this is slugging...the way the people want it"

More than likely Wilder drops George too. Does he outbox him the way Jimmy Young did that made him retire? Oh no! But It is more than likely if Wilder catches Young he drops him. And since Shavers had to land that garage sale righthand.. not sure it lands on a guy as tall as Wilder. And I have yet to see a sloppier puncher past 5 rounds than Ernie Shavers.

I think Tim Witherspoon that fought Holmes, dusts Wilder.
The Witherspoon that fought Bonecrusher 2nd time out? Gets laid out...but I truly think the Bonecrusher that laid out Witherspoon 2nd time around KO's Wilder.


The greatest so called of the 1970s & early 80s IMO wouldnt be that tough for Wilder. But the gatekeepers I think would have been disasterous for him.
He beats Shavers, Lyle, maybe a come from behind KO after Jimmy Young boxes perfect for 9 1/2 rounds LOL!
Wilder possibly loses to Tex Cobb. Cob withstands all punishment- Wilder proved he can only take so much.

[TitoFan]

HW division has always been the most suspect.

Let's Take Foreman as mentioned- This is a guy whose mental makeup-broke down. After Ali he was suspect- & we are not talking the fast fleeing Clay, rather the dude who invented laying on the ropes as some scientific accomplishment.

When Lyle dropped him again and again- While a powerful puncher- I can't say his right is more lethal than Wilder's. So if Ron dropped Lyle- as Cosell stated "This isnt artistic, this is slugging...the way the people want it"

More than likely Wilder drops George too. Does he outbox him the way Jimmy Young did that made him retire? Oh no! But It is more than likely if Wilder catches Young he drops him. And since Shavers had to land that garage sale righthand.. not sure it lands on a guy as tall as Wilder. And I have yet to see a sloppier puncher past 5 rounds than Ernie Shavers.

I think Tim Witherspoon that fought Holmes, dusts Wilder.
The Witherspoon that fought Bonecrusher 2nd time out? Gets laid out...but I truly think the Bonecrusher that laid out Witherspoon 2nd time around KO's Wilder.


The greatest so called of the 1970s & early 80s IMO wouldnt be that tough for Wilder. But the gatekeepers I think would have been disasterous for him.
He beats Shavers, Lyle, maybe a come from behind KO after Jimmy Young boxes perfect for 9 1/2 rounds LOL!
Wilder possibly loses to Tex Cobb. Cob withstands all punishment- Wilder proved he can only take so much.

I was sort of going along... until Tex Cobb.

Tex Cobb?? Really?

Yes... Cobb was beaten from pillar to post by much superior boxers, such as Larry Holmes. Cobb's main line of defense was his face, blocking all those shots.

But let's not lose perspective.

None of Cobb's losses were to "one-punch erasers." And... he DID have one KO loss on his record, so it's not like he was never knocked out.

No. Wilder could very easily do a "Dominic Breazeale" on the brave Tex Cobb.

[TitoFan]

I like how you went through each decade. Good job.

I'll go back to Liston. Not to underrate the guy, but Sonny pretty preyed on opposition that was basically scared shitless of him. Ergo, his destruction of guys like Floyd Patterson.
But Liston was a plodder. And then there's Wilder's size and cannon of a right hand like you say. Anything's possible in the ring... but I see Liston being tailormade for someone like Wilder. I think Wilder stops him with a huge right in the early to mid rounds.

From the 70's, no way Wilder comes anywhere close to beating the likes of Foreman or Ali. Frazier... it depends... but a leaping left hook from Smokin' Joe and Wilder goes bye-bye. Frazier was super busy... and that might make all the difference.

By the 90's, heavyweights were already getting bigger and heavier. As you said... Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield... way out of Wilder's league.

Contrary to what some here have said, I don't think Wilder's necessarily done. He doesn't match up well with Fury. That much is clear. But assuming he's still got the hunger to be champion, he matches up pretty well with most other HW's out there. People dump on his lack of boxing skills... but I think he's tried mightily to fix some of the wrongs. He's teachable, even if not 100% so. Today's crop of HW's aren't anything to write home about. You get past the Furys and the Joshuas... there isn't much else out there. Someone like Andy Ruiz would be an interesting test. If the Ruiz who beat Joshua in their 1st fight shows up... it's highly likely Wilder gets beat. But with Ruiz you never know.

One thing Wilder has proven is heart. And that counts for a lot.

That seems like one of the easier ones to make Wilder v Ruiz. They were jawing back and forth about a fight before Andy returned v Arreola and thinking about it pretty interesting styles mix up. Love to see what Ruiz could do with the volume and inside mixing and perfect for Wilder to display that 1-2 and learned patience at range in spots. Then again Ruiz was dropped hard by the other side of Arreola so exactly how urgent would he be to get inside on Wilders eraser. Biggest question for me on Wilder is that grey matter now. Losing is one thing but back to back knockout losses at 36 is a totally different animal.

I know what you mean about the back-to-backs. On the other hand, Wilder showed us a side of him he'd never had to show before. The willingness to go on even as he was being beaten to the punch and was in bad condition..... heart.

Tough to say how his mindset is now after the hard reality that he'll never beat a Tyson Fury.

But let's say his mind and heart are still in it. Other than those two knockout losses, Wilder hasn't been subjected to the type of career that leads to "Punch-Drunk City." He also showed he can more than hang with big bangers like Luis Ortiz.

That's what leads me to believe that... IF... he still has his winning mentality... he can still beat most other HW's out there today.