Canelo Alvarez vs Gennady Golovkin III 17/9/22

[Master]

Andre Ward was unbeatable at super middleweight and faced far better fighters than Canelo did at the weight. He also faced a peak Kovalev who was a beast at light heavyweight at the time.

Ward would beat Canelo at these weights, but he was the smaller fighter so not a fair comparison.

Canelo would be the better pound for pound fighter as the equivalent would be Ward winning at cruiserweight or even heavyweight.

I gave your post a like, but I disagree with the part in bold.
1. You say Canelo is a “smaller fighter”, but that doesn’t matter because SMW is his weight. He WAS a MW, but he is no longer and never ever will be. If they’re the same weight class , it doesn’t matter if he’s smaller, it’s his choice not to make MW.
2. You say the equivalent would be Ward going to CW or HW. not true . The equivalent would be Ward going from SMW to LHW, WHICH HE DID! (He probably could’ve gone to CW as well.)
3. Ward dominated SMW more than Canelo dominated MW or SMW. and by your admission, Ward achieved more at LHW than Canelo. So why is Canelo better p4p ?
Let us not forget, Ward never lost, so we can only surmise as to whether X,Y or Z would beat him . Whereas Canelo has lost a couple of times , so we KNOW he can get beat.

I say Canelo is the better p4p and smaller fighter because he was champion at light middleweight which you have somehow forgotten.

[TitoFan]

"If Canelo is who he says he is..."

andre just mad that canelo is already greater than him


If you say so...

give Benavidez a chance. But I forgot... Ginger doesn't fight Mexicans.

is david b a mexican?

He IS if that means Ginger can avoid him.

Ginger now saying he wants Bivol again. I actually hope he gets his wish. But at 175 again. Not some bullshit catchweight.

yes i say so in my opinion. it was a yes or no question, david b was either born in mexico or he wasn't. where does david b tell us he was born? on the bullshit catchweight stuff, i heard talk that dmitry could possibly fight canelo at one sixty eight. looking from dmitry's side why shouldn't he get the opportunity to fight for undisputed in another division if he wants too?

I also hope Bivol fights Canelo at 168, because will beat him at that weight also! Then what’s team Canelo gonna say? cue the “Bivol on PEDs “ claim.
And Canelo will NEVER EVER be greater than Ward. If the 2 ever fought, Ward would’ve won, very simple.

dmitry could beat canelo at one sixty eight, it's a very likely possibility. i said going into the first fight that dmitry was a difficult challenge & i think he can make super middle without weakening himself, so i feel dmitry will be just as difficult at one sixty eight. you'd have to ask team canelo what they would say. i'll just be happy seeing canelo take on another significant challenge. canelo will always be greater than andre in my opinion & i feel canelo would have beaten him

I'm not sure either of you have actually gotten to know the mentality of Canelo and his team over the years, so I'll shed some light on the topic here.

If Dmitry would somehow agree to fight Canelo at 168.... do you ACTUALLY THINK it would be without some sort of rehydration clause??

Canelo made a mistake the first time. He got too full of himself (remember... he was thinking of challenging some Joe Blow for a cruiserweight trinket) with all the gimmes of the past... and thought he could take Bivol. (My only regret is that Bivol didn't pressure enough to take him out KTFO-style).

Now that Canelo has seen first hand that Bivol is superior to him in EVERY WAY... do you think he's going to drag Bivol down to 168 without some sort of rehydration clause to weaken the guy?

I wouldn't put it past Team Canelo to insist that yes... the fight will be at 168... but on fight night you can't be above 170. Bivol would probably look like a Halloween skeleton and who knows..... Canelo's legacy's "a-waiting."

No. If Canelo thinks he could've beaten Bivol at 175 and he only lost because (cough) he got too tired... I say let him do it.

This time I'm hoping for the highlight reel knockout.

[Primo Carnera]

Andre Ward was unbeatable at super middleweight and faced far better fighters than Canelo did at the weight. He also faced a peak Kovalev who was a beast at light heavyweight at the time.

Ward would beat Canelo at these weights, but he was the smaller fighter so not a fair comparison.

Canelo would be the better pound for pound fighter as the equivalent would be Ward winning at cruiserweight or even heavyweight.

I gave your post a like, but I disagree with the part in bold.
1. You say Canelo is a “smaller fighter”, but that doesn’t matter because SMW is his weight. He WAS a MW, but he is no longer and never ever will be. If they’re the same weight class , it doesn’t matter if he’s smaller, it’s his choice not to make MW.
2. You say the equivalent would be Ward going to CW or HW. not true . The equivalent would be Ward going from SMW to LHW, WHICH HE DID! (He probably could’ve gone to CW as well.)
3. Ward dominated SMW more than Canelo dominated MW or SMW. and by your admission, Ward achieved more at LHW than Canelo. So why is Canelo better p4p ?
Let us not forget, Ward never lost, so we can only surmise as to whether X,Y or Z would beat him . Whereas Canelo has lost a couple of times , so we KNOW he can get beat.

I say Canelo is the better p4p and smaller fighter because he was champion at light middleweight which you have somehow forgotten.

I hadn't forgotten , but i don't see it makes any difference. Are you saying that Pound for Pound should be judged on How Many weights you have won titles at rather than Quality ? if so , I have loads of problems with this.
for Example , and I'm going to regret asking this , but who is the better Boxer p4p , Floyd or Manny ? Manny won titles at a gazillion weights, but you would be in a huge minority if you put him above Floyd p4p.
think back to when they were both Boxing and Floyd was always #1 and Manny was always #2 . please don't become a revisonalist and somehow try to get out of that.
Also , How come Wlad was so high on the p4p lists? or any HW in history going by your way of thinking ??
I reckon you need to go and think about this .

[Master]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

[TIC]

"If Canelo is who he says he is..."

andre just mad that canelo is already greater than him


If you say so...

give Benavidez a chance. But I forgot... Ginger doesn't fight Mexicans.

is david b a mexican?

He IS if that means Ginger can avoid him.

Ginger now saying he wants Bivol again. I actually hope he gets his wish. But at 175 again. Not some bullshit catchweight.

yes i say so in my opinion. it was a yes or no question, david b was either born in mexico or he wasn't. where does david b tell us he was born? on the bullshit catchweight stuff, i heard talk that dmitry could possibly fight canelo at one sixty eight. looking from dmitry's side why shouldn't he get the opportunity to fight for undisputed in another division if he wants too?

I also hope Bivol fights Canelo at 168, because will beat him at that weight also! Then what’s team Canelo gonna say? cue the “Bivol on PEDs “ claim.
And Canelo will NEVER EVER be greater than Ward. If the 2 ever fought, Ward would’ve won, very simple.

dmitry could beat canelo at one sixty eight, it's a very likely possibility. i said going into the first fight that dmitry was a difficult challenge & i think he can make super middle without weakening himself, so i feel dmitry will be just as difficult at one sixty eight. you'd have to ask team canelo what they would say. i'll just be happy seeing canelo take on another significant challenge. canelo will always be greater than andre in my opinion & i feel canelo would have beaten him

If Dmitry would somehow agree to fight Canelo at 168.... do you ACTUALLY THINK it would be without some sort of rehydration clause?? do you think he's going to drag Bivol down to 168 without some sort of rehydration clause to weaken the guy?

yes i actually think there wouldn't be a rehydration clause

[TIC]

Andre Ward was unbeatable at super middleweight and faced far better fighters than Canelo did at the weight. He also faced a peak Kovalev who was a beast at light heavyweight at the time.

Ward would beat Canelo at these weights, but he was the smaller fighter so not a fair comparison.

Canelo would be the better pound for pound fighter as the equivalent would be Ward winning at cruiserweight or even heavyweight.

Let us not forget, Ward never lost, so we can only surmise as to whether X,Y or Z would beat him . Whereas Canelo has lost a couple of times , so we KNOW he can get beat.

i thought andre lost the first fight with sergey & should have been disqualified in the rematch

[Primo Carnera]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

Nah Mate, you are wriggling here big time, but I ain’t letting you off the hook. So many contradictions.
Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?
So , for example, most people rank Crawford higher than Spence p4p, but if Spence beat Crawford, would that still be the case?
Wlad dominated so he’s near the top. Guess what? Ward dominated……….. the only difference is WARD WAS NEVER BEATEN.
I totally see why you would rate Hearns highly, fuck me, I would . But Leonard not only beat him, but he also beat another guy that beat Hearns in Hagler.
So you can’t possibly put him above Leonard. It’s not like SRL didn’t do it at multiple weights.
Don’t get me wrong, I said the other week, if Hearns had beaten SRL and if he hadn’t thrown his game plan out the window against Hagler, we would’ve looked at his career very differently. He may have even been #1 on the all time list. But unfortunately those things never happened.
Trust me, nobody would’ve loved that scenario more than me. Hearns is one of my all time faves.
All of those things I’ve mentioned about SRL & Hearns, you could say the same about Floyd & Manny. But I’m not going to bother, because you clearly can’t be objective when it comes to Floyd.
Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

[Primo Carnera]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

[Primo Carnera]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

Yep. But Canelo is not an all time great. In this era, he’s certainly up there, but in case you weren’t aware “all time” is a long time.

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

Yep. But Canelo is not an all time great. In this era, he’s certainly up there, but in case you weren’t aware “all time” is a long time.

i consider canelo an all time great & i think history will remember him that way

[Primo Carnera]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

Yep. But Canelo is not an all time great. In this era, he’s certainly up there, but in case you weren’t aware “all time” is a long time.

i consider canelo an all time great & i think history will remember him that way

I don’t.

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

Yep. But Canelo is not an all time great. In this era, he’s certainly up there, but in case you weren’t aware “all time” is a long time.

i consider canelo an all time great & i think history will remember him that way

I don’t.

you don't have to

[Master]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

Nah Mate, you are wriggling here big time, but I ain’t letting you off the hook. So many contradictions.
Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?
So , for example, most people rank Crawford higher than Spence p4p, but if Spence beat Crawford, would that still be the case?
Wlad dominated so he’s near the top. Guess what? Ward dominated……….. the only difference is WARD WAS NEVER BEATEN.
I totally see why you would rate Hearns highly, fuck me, I would . But Leonard not only beat him, but he also beat another guy that beat Hearns in Hagler.
So you can’t possibly put him above Leonard. It’s not like SRL didn’t do it at multiple weights.
Don’t get me wrong, I said the other week, if Hearns had beaten SRL and if he hadn’t thrown his game plan out the window against Hagler, we would’ve looked at his career very differently. He may have even been #1 on the all time list. But unfortunately those things never happened.
Trust me, nobody would’ve loved that scenario more than me. Hearns is one of my all time faves.
All of those things I’ve mentioned about SRL & Hearns, you could say the same about Floyd & Manny. But I’m not going to bother, because you clearly can’t be objective when it comes to Floyd.
Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

You can be ranked higher p4p than your opponent who has beaten you depending on the circumstances. So far Crawford has spent the majority of his career at the lighter weights, although this is the longest, he has stayed at any weight. So, his case is weakening if he stayed at the weight any longer and loses to Spence.

Just because Wlad lost does not mean you can not be ranked high on the p4p list because he dominated the weight and had loads of defences against the best available challengers.

I am not going to criticise Ward to make my points as he is a great underrated boxer.

Hearns won more titles at multiple weights and in a better fashion than Leonard who manipulated the fights to achieve his progression.

There is not one single fight at light middleweight that Canelo won that would rank him higher than Ward but the fact that he was the best at the weight and beat Trout and Lara help his case.