Canelo Alvarez vs Gennady Golovkin III 17/9/22

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

[TIC]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

[Primo Carnera]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

[Primo Carnera]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

well @Master would, so there you go. @Master, you are very kind and it is always a pleasure to debate with you without things getting too accusatory or heated. And if I'm honest, if it ever does, it's usually from my side , which I apologise for in advance.
@TIC , stop being a sulky pants and spitting the dummy out and behave like a rational adult !

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

[TIC]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

well @Master would, so there you go. @Master, you are very kind and it is always a pleasure to debate with you without things getting too accusatory or heated. And if I'm honest, if it ever does, it's usually from my side , which I apologise for in advance.
@TIC , stop being a sulky pants and spitting the dummy out and behave like a rational adult !

i wouldn't. primo carnera i have always been polite to you in our discussions, it's unfortunate you can't do the same

[Master]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Primo is not being dishonest he just asked a question.

It is an interesting discussion about how we interpret p4p, and we all have our own opinion which we can change through debate. I am open to his thoughts as I am not entirely convinced, I have all the answers on who is the better p4p fighter of the two.

All I would say is that Primo does tend to admire the zero more than it should be as taking a challenge to move up in weight but lose should not be held against them.

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Primo is not being dishonest he just asked a question.

It is an interesting discussion about how we interpret p4p, and we all have our own opinion which we can change through debate. I am open to his thoughts as I am not entirely convinced, I have all the answers on who is the better p4p fighter of the two.

All I would say is that Primo does tend to admire the zero more than it should be as taking a challenge to move up in weight but lose should not be held against them.

he is being dishonest & misrepresenting what you said. you said some of canelo's bests wins are at light middleweight. primo carnera then creates the strawman argument, "So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?". aren't we comparing careers? we all have our own opinions & these are subjective lists

[Master]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Primo is not being dishonest he just asked a question.

It is an interesting discussion about how we interpret p4p, and we all have our own opinion which we can change through debate. I am open to his thoughts as I am not entirely convinced, I have all the answers on who is the better p4p fighter of the two.

All I would say is that Primo does tend to admire the zero more than it should be as taking a challenge to move up in weight but lose should not be held against them.

he is being dishonest & misrepresenting what you said. you said some of canelo's bests wins are at light middleweight. primo carnera then creates the strawman argument, "So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?". aren't we comparing careers? we all have our own opinions & these are subjective lists

I gave him 2 names and said they alone do not elevate him above Ward. Primo accepted this and was the end of that particular discussion.

[Primo Carnera]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Who is “creating an argument?” The only person trying to create an argument is You!…………….with Yourself.

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Primo is not being dishonest he just asked a question.

It is an interesting discussion about how we interpret p4p, and we all have our own opinion which we can change through debate. I am open to his thoughts as I am not entirely convinced, I have all the answers on who is the better p4p fighter of the two.

All I would say is that Primo does tend to admire the zero more than it should be as taking a challenge to move up in weight but lose should not be held against them.

he is being dishonest & misrepresenting what you said. you said some of canelo's bests wins are at light middleweight. primo carnera then creates the strawman argument, "So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?". aren't we comparing careers? we all have our own opinions & these are subjective lists

I gave him 2 names and said they alone do not elevate him above Ward. Primo accepted this and was the end of that particular discussion.

you said some of canelo's best wins were at light middleweight. this can be agreed or disagreed with. you didn't say that those wins alone elevate canelo over andre. primo carnera came back with that argument & it's true that those wins alone do not elevate canelo over andre, because it's two fighters you mentioned against andre's career. also based on the information provided the erislandy fight was not even at light middleweight, so you only gave him one name for light middleweight. if the discussion is about who is higher all time pound for pound then why bother signaling out a couple of fights? shouldn't the fighters whole careers be looked at? admittedly canelo's is not yet over

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Who is “creating an argument?” The only person trying to create an argument is You!…………….with Yourself.

just highlighting your dishonest tactics that i have also pointed out in the past. you skew your questions into strawman arguments that haven't been implied or made but lets move past that because i wanted to focus on one of your own questions you asked & get your answer to it if possible. do you think a fighter can be higher ranked all time pound for pound than their opponent, even if their opponent beat them?

[TitoFan]

I've always felt Andre Ward is severely overrated. Not hating on him... just basing my opinion on his maddening inactivity toward the end of his career, averaging about a fight a year from 2012 to his last fight in 2017. His last dozen or so opponents were more than credible... but I just don't think he was busy enough to warrant the high ATG ranking he gets from some. I'd compare him in a way to Keith Thurman, another huge talent with maddening inactivity.

That being said, I totally concur with Ward's assessments of Canelo. It's nothing I haven't said before. Comparing Canelo's career to Ward's is a moot point for me, because I rate neither of them that highly, for different reasons. Just because Ward's resume may not be as lengthy as Canelo's... that has no bearing on the manufactured element of Canelo's resume. In this modern era, I'd say he's the poster child for inflating a record only for the record's sake. Marinating, catchweights, diva demands and clauses, cherry picking... these are all qualities perfected by Canelo... swallowed hook, line, and sinker by his fans... most of which lack the knowledge of boxing's past.

In short, Ward can talk shit about Canelo's career all he wants. He's a former boxer and knows more about the ins-and-outs of building a career than any of us boxing fans.

[Primo Carnera]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Who is “creating an argument?” The only person trying to create an argument is You!…………….with Yourself.

just highlighting your dishonest tactics that i have also pointed out in the past. you skew your questions into strawman arguments that haven't been implied or made but lets move past that because i wanted to focus on one of your own questions you asked & get your answer to it if possible. do you think a fighter can be higher ranked all time pound for pound than their opponent, even if their opponent beat them?

I’ll ignore the first have of your post, because it’s unworthy of a comment. So I’ll stick to answering the question.
If both Boxers are either at their prime or at the same points of their careers, then no, I don’t think a Boxer can be ranked higher than their opponent if their opponent beat them.
I’m not trying to be evasive with that answer, I’m just trying to be as clear as possible, because there are exceptions to every rule.
For example. Ali lost to Norton, Berbick, Spinks , even Frazier. But Ali would be above all of them because he was further from his prime than those mentioned. Even Frazier, because he hadn’t fought at the level Frazier was at for over 3 years.
Even possibly Hagler and Hearns, Hagler beat him at “his weight” the only weight he ever fought at , whereas Hearns had peaks at lower weights and even won titles at heavier weights so there is an argument for Hearns to be higher than Hagler.
Whereas Floyd and Manny although not at their primes, were in a similar place in their careers , so I believe Floyd beating Manny trumps Manny winning titles at more weights. Also because there is nobody on Manny’s record that Floyd wouldn’t beat.
Hope that answers (my) question.

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Who is “creating an argument?” The only person trying to create an argument is You!…………….with Yourself.

just highlighting your dishonest tactics that i have also pointed out in the past. you skew your questions into strawman arguments that haven't been implied or made but lets move past that because i wanted to focus on one of your own questions you asked & get your answer to it if possible. do you think a fighter can be higher ranked all time pound for pound than their opponent, even if their opponent beat them?

If both Boxers are either at their prime or at the same points of their careers, then no, I don’t think a Boxer can be ranked higher than their opponent if their opponent beat them.
I’m not trying to be evasive with that answer, I’m just trying to be as clear as possible, because there are exceptions to every rule.

the part i highlighted can be hard to determined sometimes. for example bernard hopkins v jermain taylor. sure bernard was getting on but he continued to have success at the highest levels for almost a decade after he fought jermain. i have bernard ahead of jermain all time. i agree there are exceptions