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Thread: How good was Floyd?

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  1. #31
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    What I said about Floyd's record is true but yes I do not like him at all. He claims he is TBE and he is not.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Apply shame. Apply fame. The crook and the flail.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    these type of lists are subjective so there is no need to argue. weight classes dominated can depend on the era, i don't fault someone like marvin hagler for remaining at one sixty. i like quality of opposition, longevity, how they won or lost, historical impact can also be incorporated with my own preferences & favourites. here's a list of twenty guys in no real order that i'd put before floyd. ray robinson, henry Armstrong, muhammad ali, joe louis, willie pep, harry greb, ezzard charles, benny leonard, roberto duran, ray leonard, pernell whitaker, sam Langford, joe gans, jimmy wild, rocky marciano, archie moore, mickey walker, stanley Ketchel, carlos monzon, julio cesar chavez. i could list more, guys like ike williams, emile griffith, carlos ortiz, sandy saddler, i'm probably forgetting a few. i think i'd even have evander holyfield & bernard hopkins ahead of floyd
    Apply shame. Apply fame. The crook and the flail.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    these type of lists are subjective so there is no need to argue. weight classes dominated can depend on the era, i don't fault someone like marvin hagler for remaining at one sixty. i like quality of opposition, longevity, how they won or lost, historical impact can also be incorporated with my own preferences & favourites. here's a list of twenty guys in no real order that i'd put before floyd. ray robinson, henry Armstrong, muhammad ali, joe louis, willie pep, harry greb, ezzard charles, benny leonard, roberto duran, ray leonard, pernell whitaker, sam Langford, joe gans, jimmy wild, rocky marciano, archie moore, mickey walker, stanley Ketchel, carlos monzon, julio cesar chavez. i could list more, guys like ike williams, emile griffith, carlos ortiz, sandy saddler, i'm probably forgetting a few. i think i'd even have evander holyfield & bernard hopkins ahead of floyd
    This interesting and I completely agree that these lists are subjective so no need to argue them- very respectable list and we have many of the same names ahEad of Floyd. Just curious, what are some of your reasons for ranking Rocky Marciano higher than Floyd? I’m also interested in your thoughts on Ketchel, Mickey Walker, and Harry Greb- they were all tough fighters but the quality of the sport and opposition was much lower then.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    I wonder about the dramatic decline after Ruiz. Roy always had trouble with long southpaws and I think Tarver was always a bad match up. That being said, he seemed just as fast and athletic throughout both fights until he got caught in the second round of the rematch. Ali, Holmes, Evander, Pernell, BHOP…etc., all had gradual declines and never suffered blowouts so close to their primes. I’m not saying I’m right, just saying, that is how I weight that aspect.

    We agree on the Toney win- that was superb and he dominated a great, prime fighter who was undefeated and ranked #2 p4p at the time of the fight. I respectfully disagree on the BHOP fight- Bernard was still green at that point and nowhere near the fighter he became in the late 90s and early 2000s. I don’t give full credit to Roy for his win over BHOP early just like I don’t give BHOP credit for his win over a past his prime Roy later. Roy’s best wins to me were Toney, Tarver, Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and John Ruiz. Those were good wins but I’m not sure they are better than Floyd’s best (Toney being the best of either but Floyd fighting more and better overall challengers). Again, I’m not saying I’m right or trying to convince you, I’m mainly explaining how I came to my rankings. I can see your case for Roy and respect your opinion on it.

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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    these type of lists are subjective so there is no need to argue. weight classes dominated can depend on the era, i don't fault someone like marvin hagler for remaining at one sixty. i like quality of opposition, longevity, how they won or lost, historical impact can also be incorporated with my own preferences & favourites. here's a list of twenty guys in no real order that i'd put before floyd. ray robinson, henry Armstrong, muhammad ali, joe louis, willie pep, harry greb, ezzard charles, benny leonard, roberto duran, ray leonard, pernell whitaker, sam Langford, joe gans, jimmy wild, rocky marciano, archie moore, mickey walker, stanley Ketchel, carlos monzon, julio cesar chavez. i could list more, guys like ike williams, emile griffith, carlos ortiz, sandy saddler, i'm probably forgetting a few. i think i'd even have evander holyfield & bernard hopkins ahead of floyd
    This interesting and I completely agree that these lists are subjective so no need to argue them- very respectable list and we have many of the same names ahEad of Floyd. Just curious, what are some of your reasons for ranking Rocky Marciano higher than Floyd? I’m also interested in your thoughts on Ketchel, Mickey Walker, and Harry Greb- they were all tough fighters but the quality of the sport and opposition was much lower then.
    all these guys are all time greats & it can be unfair to rank them against each other due to era's. as i said this list isn't in order just names that came to mind. rocky could be a guy i could push further back towards thirty but floyd's whole thing about the tbe ever is based on his beating rocky's record. the record for me is only relevant because rocky is the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. other fighters have been passed that record but lost further down the track. as for stanley, mickey & harry i think you are being a bit unfair in saying the quality was much lower. there were many tough good fighters around & those guys pretty much fought them all. i believe mickey started around lightweight & went on to face heavies, massively outweighed at times. in that era there was allegedly mob involvement in bouts, i think there was talk of jack sharkey carrying mickey & almost losing the decision. from what i have read mickey sounds like a functioning alcoholic & to me that is impressive to be performing at the level he did. stanley looks raw from what i have seen but based on what historians say & his record he is another guy that fought almost everyone & carried big time power. he was also fighting some twenty & thirty odd rounds. harry's body of work alone is amazing & other all time greats gave high high accolades. different times though, these guys had to fight constantly to make a living, they didn't have the luxury of jack dempsey type purses
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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
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    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    I wonder about the dramatic decline after Ruiz. Roy always had trouble with long southpaws and I think Tarver was always a bad match up. That being said, he seemed just as fast and athletic throughout both fights until he got caught in the second round of the rematch. Ali, Holmes, Evander, Pernell, BHOP…etc., all had gradual declines and never suffered blowouts so close to their primes. I’m not saying I’m right, just saying, that is how I weight that aspect.

    We agree on the Toney win- that was superb and he dominated a great, prime fighter who was undefeated and ranked #2 p4p at the time of the fight. I respectfully disagree on the BHOP fight- Bernard was still green at that point and nowhere near the fighter he became in the late 90s and early 2000s. I don’t give full credit to Roy for his win over BHOP early just like I don’t give BHOP credit for his win over a past his prime Roy later. Roy’s best wins to me were Toney, Tarver, Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and John Ruiz. Those were good wins but I’m not sure they are better than Floyd’s best (Toney being the best of either but Floyd fighting more and better overall challengers). Again, I’m not saying I’m right or trying to convince you, I’m mainly explaining how I came to my rankings. I can see your case for Roy and respect your opinion on it.
    I think the dramatic decline was due to going up to heavyweight and rushing back to face Tarver. Not good for his body and he was never the same again.

    I think we gave disagreed on this before as I do not think B Hop was green when he faced Roy Jones Jnr. The best version of B Hop, which was when he beat Tito, would not beaten Jones. Roy was just too good.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
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    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    I wonder about the dramatic decline after Ruiz. Roy always had trouble with long southpaws and I think Tarver was always a bad match up. That being said, he seemed just as fast and athletic throughout both fights until he got caught in the second round of the rematch. Ali, Holmes, Evander, Pernell, BHOP…etc., all had gradual declines and never suffered blowouts so close to their primes. I’m not saying I’m right, just saying, that is how I weight that aspect.

    We agree on the Toney win- that was superb and he dominated a great, prime fighter who was undefeated and ranked #2 p4p at the time of the fight. I respectfully disagree on the BHOP fight- Bernard was still green at that point and nowhere near the fighter he became in the late 90s and early 2000s. I don’t give full credit to Roy for his win over BHOP early just like I don’t give BHOP credit for his win over a past his prime Roy later. Roy’s best wins to me were Toney, Tarver, Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and John Ruiz. Those were good wins but I’m not sure they are better than Floyd’s best (Toney being the best of either but Floyd fighting more and better overall challengers). Again, I’m not saying I’m right or trying to convince you, I’m mainly explaining how I came to my rankings. I can see your case for Roy and respect your opinion on it.
    I think the dramatic decline was due to going up to heavyweight and rushing back to face Tarver. Not good for his body and he was never the same again.

    I think we gave disagreed on this before as I do not think B Hop was green when he faced Roy Jones Jnr. The best version of B Hop, which was when he beat Tito, would not beaten Jones. Roy was just too good.
    Just curious as to whether you feel Canelo was green vs Floyd or if you feel that was a great win for Floyd at a higher weight than his best (154)? Always appreciate a different perspective, so thanks for discussing.

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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    That was a good win for Floyd against Canelo, I do not agree about Alvarez being green and too inexperienced at the time. I was very frustrated at how slow and flat footed Canelo was made to look and considering it was at light middleweight Floyd did very well.

    Floyd should not have asked Canelo to come in at lower than 154lb limit. The catchweight clause tainted the win.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
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    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    I wonder about the dramatic decline after Ruiz. Roy always had trouble with long southpaws and I think Tarver was always a bad match up. That being said, he seemed just as fast and athletic throughout both fights until he got caught in the second round of the rematch. Ali, Holmes, Evander, Pernell, BHOP…etc., all had gradual declines and never suffered blowouts so close to their primes. I’m not saying I’m right, just saying, that is how I weight that aspect.

    We agree on the Toney win- that was superb and he dominated a great, prime fighter who was undefeated and ranked #2 p4p at the time of the fight. I respectfully disagree on the BHOP fight- Bernard was still green at that point and nowhere near the fighter he became in the late 90s and early 2000s. I don’t give full credit to Roy for his win over BHOP early just like I don’t give BHOP credit for his win over a past his prime Roy later. Roy’s best wins to me were Toney, Tarver, Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and John Ruiz. Those were good wins but I’m not sure they are better than Floyd’s best (Toney being the best of either but Floyd fighting more and better overall challengers). Again, I’m not saying I’m right or trying to convince you, I’m mainly explaining how I came to my rankings. I can see your case for Roy and respect your opinion on it.
    I think the dramatic decline was due to going up to heavyweight and rushing back to face Tarver. Not good for his body and he was never the same again.

    I think we gave disagreed on this before as I do not think B Hop was green when he faced Roy Jones Jnr. The best version of B Hop, which was when he beat Tito, would not beaten Jones. Roy was just too good.
    just asking i might have missed it, do you rate roy jones jr ahead of bernard all time?
    Apply shame. Apply fame. The crook and the flail.

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    Default Re: How good was Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
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    A boxer in their 30’s in 1970’s was older in “boxing terms” than those in Floyd's era. Ali had much more fights and the competition greater.
    Not true. Yes , Ali had more fights. No, the competition wasn’t necessarily greater. And Spinks was in his 8th pro fight! I suppose that “in the 70’s” that meant he was a seasoned pro nowadays? Keep spinning how you like.
    I never said Floyd was above Ali. But I did say Floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there.
    Why do you need to constantly, irrationally disrespect Floyd’s record?
    i'm just commenting on the floyd has earned the right to say he was and to say he’s up there part. anyone can say & think what they want, however that doesn't automatically make it true. i have said in this thread that floyd probably beats anyone around his weights on his night. i don't rate fighters on probably so i can only rate him on what he actually did in the ring. for me i don't think he had a true fifty fifty challenge or a fight where he was the underdog after the jose luis castillo rematch. floyd can say he's up there & i'd agree that he is an all time great, although i'd struggle to put him among my top twenty all time greats, he might squeeze into my top thirty
    Not arguing or poking holes in your statement, genuinely interested to hear who the 20-29 fighters you would rank ahead of Floyd, and what weighted criteria you use to come up with your rankings. I have a difficult time justifying Keeping Floyd out of my top 15, and I can see a solid case for top 10. In my opinion, Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran…etc., best better competition so they are ranked higher on my ATG list. I see rankings with Salvadore Sanchez, Roy Jones jr., Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler…etc., ranked higher, but I feel like Floyd either beat better competition or dominated more weight classes so I can’t rank them higher. Joe Louis and Ali had the greater historical impact, so I tend to rank them higher. For me ATG is based on historical impact, quality of competition, won/loss, intangibles, weight classes dominated, length of time at the top, and blowout losses during prime (Lennox Lewis is hurt on my list due to this criteria). Interested in what you weight and how you weight the categories.
    Normally respect your views but Roy Jones should be higher than Floyd.
    I can see the case for Roy being ranked higher, and at times I’ve had him higher than Floyd and can likely be swayed to do so again. Similar to your argument against Floyd, I penalize him for quality of opposition and missed fights that should have been made. The other factor that really hurts Roy with me is the knockout losses so close to his prime. He had a great career and was the most talented fighter in history. If you rate the win over Ruiz extremely high and give him full credit for his extended time at the top of most p4p lists I can see why you rank him higher.
    After Ruiz the drop/decline was all there to see in dramatic fashion but what he did during his time at the top beating great boxers like B Hop and Toney tops everything for that particular generation.
    I wonder about the dramatic decline after Ruiz. Roy always had trouble with long southpaws and I think Tarver was always a bad match up. That being said, he seemed just as fast and athletic throughout both fights until he got caught in the second round of the rematch. Ali, Holmes, Evander, Pernell, BHOP…etc., all had gradual declines and never suffered blowouts so close to their primes. I’m not saying I’m right, just saying, that is how I weight that aspect.

    We agree on the Toney win- that was superb and he dominated a great, prime fighter who was undefeated and ranked #2 p4p at the time of the fight. I respectfully disagree on the BHOP fight- Bernard was still green at that point and nowhere near the fighter he became in the late 90s and early 2000s. I don’t give full credit to Roy for his win over BHOP early just like I don’t give BHOP credit for his win over a past his prime Roy later. Roy’s best wins to me were Toney, Tarver, Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and John Ruiz. Those were good wins but I’m not sure they are better than Floyd’s best (Toney being the best of either but Floyd fighting more and better overall challengers). Again, I’m not saying I’m right or trying to convince you, I’m mainly explaining how I came to my rankings. I can see your case for Roy and respect your opinion on it.
    I think the dramatic decline was due to going up to heavyweight and rushing back to face Tarver. Not good for his body and he was never the same again.

    I think we gave disagreed on this before as I do not think B Hop was green when he faced Roy Jones Jnr. The best version of B Hop, which was when he beat Tito, would not beaten Jones. Roy was just too good.
    just asking i might have missed it, do you rate roy jones jr ahead of bernard all time?
    Roy Jones would be higher than B Hop in the ATG list.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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