Who is next for Canelo?

[TIC]

so no one forced david b to move up? he chose to? david morrell has held a belt from about the same time david b was eating his way out of a belt & apparently according to his own promoter an agreement was signed to fight david m but he'd prefer to face a guy who was beaten into a three year retirement. all this talk of canelo ducking david b but nothing about david b ducking david morrell

[Spicoli]

Facing a guy off a three year retirement who is still light years ahead of anyone Morrell has yet to or is set to face. Holding a trinket from an org with multiple and beating legit top ranked fighters for a mandatory title shot at Saúl Álvarez are entirely different things. It’s Morrells turn.

[TitoFan]

i just think if you want to discuss a fighter you should be able to acknowledge when the same thing i done by other fighters. i also respect floyd as a fighter but more in his earlier years. much of his career after the jose castillo rematch i could do without. i do give him credit for how he handle canelo though, although the catchweight takes some shine off for me. tyson knew deontay was a limited fighter, that's why he fought him only three fights into his return & then twice more. i only mentioned macho & the prince because of how much distain they received, nothing to do with who they fought. whenever you reach the level canelo is at you will always receive a degree of hate, the reasons can differ immensely. you said canelo's been carefully built. taking on floyd is not careful building, most thought canelo lost the first fight to ggg, canelo took the immediate rematch, that is careful building & if dmitry was a gross miscalculation, then that's not careful building. one excuse for canelo not to fight david b is that he doesn't have to yet, david b is not his mandatory & the fight hasn't been ordered. canelo's fought punchers & guys in his same division & above him

I absolutely acknowledge the same things on other fighters. Always have. Canelo just happens to be head and shoulders above anyone else on these things. Did Floyd protect his "0" when he could've taken bigger challenges at some point in his career? Of course. I agree that Macho and Prince got more than their share of disdain. But like you said it had nothing to do with whom they fought. In fact, that is one of their positive sides to their respective careers. But I'll push back on your statement of "whenever you reach the level canelo is at you will always receive a degree of hate". First, we need to agree on the definition of the word "level." Canelo is a product of the social media age. There have PLENTY of much better fighters than Canelo in the past... and I dare say many more will come in the future. Canelo is a great fighter. Nothing more... nothing less. But he's a social media phenomenon. He's also the darling of legion of casual fans who have little or no recollection of boxing in past decades. You don't have to be old, of course. You just have to be a student of the sport and watch old fights, and research old fighters. You are the exception. Very knowledgeable about the sport and its past... but somehow an avowed Canelo fan. I can name plenty of fighters that achieved the heights of Canelo and MUCH higher... yet did not receive the amount of hate that Canelo receives.

I stick to my point of Canelo's career being carefully built... and of course these are all opinions. You can mention Floyd as an exception. Ok. Floyd was then what Canelo is now. The fighter everyone wants to cash in with. Everyone thinks he's p4p and demands to fight guys like Floyd back then and Canelo now. Hatton thought he was p4p and look what happened to him. Against Floyd AND against Pac. Canelo thought hugely of himself (along with his legions) and demanded a fight with Floyd. Floyd proceeded to call it one of the easiest fights he's ever had. You mention the rematch with GGG. Let's begin with the 1st fight. Once again I'll state... Canelo could've fought GGG a couple of years prior, when GGG was calling him out. That's where the infamous "marinating" term was first coined. Canelo was "not yet ready" to fight GGG at 160. Yet he was ready to go up to 164 and fight JCC's mummy of a son. THEN... he fought GGG. Again, everything under Canelo's terms and convenience. Bivol? Yes, a gross miscalculation. Hey... even Canelo overrides his team once in a while and bites off more than he can chew. But Canelo has a LONG boxing history. Most of his picks for fights have been coldly calculated with minimum risk involved.

David B? I think Spicoli makes some very good points regarding Benavidez, so I won't repeat them. Suffice it to say that Benavidez has been the white elephant in the room for quite some time now. He's been conveniently ignored, while Canelo goes after the Jermell Charlos of the world. It is hard to respect someone like that.

I've been a Canelo hater from the beginning, so there's that. But I know for a fact that some people that started as Canelo fans in the beginning have since seen the light.

If Canelo truly is the "face of boxing", we're screwed.

[Primo Carnera]

Ok let’s put this Floyd v Canelo “who’s the best debate to bed once and for all with facts.
Anti Floyd people say Floyd Cherry picked . Hmmmm, let’s have a look at his last 11 fights (I don’t include the McGregor fight , because as far as I’m concerned, it was more circus than pro Boxing. )

Mayweather vs. Baldomir
Baldomir was The Ring Welterweight champion and was unbeaten in 8 years.
Mayweather vs. De La Hoya
Everything was in De La Hoya’s favour. He was definitely the “A side” and WBC light-middleweight titleholder .
Mayweather vs. Hatton
Unification fight , best 2 in the division.
Comeback
Mayweather vs. Marquez
Mayweather was coming out of a 21-month retirement and Marques was The Ring lightweight champion and #2 pound-for-pound fighter.
Mayweather vs. Mosley
Andre Berto pulled out and although many say Mosley was done, he was The Ring #3 pound-for-pound . Not a bad stand in.
Mayweather vs Ortiz
Ortiz was the WBC welterweight champion .

Mayweather vs. Guerrero

Guerrero was the WBC interim welterweight champion, Ring No. 3 ranked welterweight, and the WBC's mandatory challenger and This was Mayweather's first fight since being released from jail.

Mayweather v Alvarez

“Alvarez was young and inexperienced” - he was 23 with over 40 pro fights.
“Alvarez was made to boil down” - it was 2 lbs. And it was his choice.
Mayweather was 37 YEARS OLD!

Mayweather vs. Maidana
This was a unification bout .Maidana was WBA (Super) welterweight title holder.

Mayweather vs. Maidana II
Some people thought Maidana was robbed and he probably gave Mayweather his toughest ever fight, so he rematches him and beat him fairly convincingly.

Mayweather vs. Pacquiao
Despite the fact that people said it was a few years too late ,(Bizarre seeing as that would be less beneficial to Floyd as he’s 2 years older.) they were still the 2 best fighters on the planet.

Mayweather vs. Berto
I count this as his last fight , I don’t count Macgregor. Mayweather had retired as WBA (Super) champ and Berto was the interim title holder.

Let’s compare that with Canelo ‘s last 11 opponents and see who you think had the better opposition.

Jermell Charlo
John Ryder
GGG
Bivol (LOST)
Plant
Saunders
Yildirim
Callum Smith
Kovalev
Jacobs
Fielding

So we don’t need to discuss this ever again, do we?

[TIC]

when i talk about canelo's level, i am referring to his crossover star appeal, one of the guys in the sport that even casuals know & brings in the big money. i consider aj on that level currently & maybe naoya in japan for the little guys. some of the hate these guys get is warranted, some is unnecessary. look at the hate aj gets at times. some brought on, other times just unnecessary hate. there are those that hat on naoya & will say stuff like tank would kayo him, just to hate on him. i am a canelo fan but have stated recently that i am becoming frustrated but i can acknowledge that he has taken risks in his career & fought some of the best of his time. did all the fights happen when they should have? of course not. but canelo is not alone in this. did he take money fights instead of the best challenges at times? sure he did but again he is not alone in this. i agree that there are much better fighters than canelo in the past, look at someone like finito lopez, he's virtually unknown. guys like muhammad ali were hated at times, mike tyson went through his share, oscar de la hoya still gets his share. some of it is warranted & brought on themselves, other times it's just unnecessary hate. fighting floyd was a huge risk for canelo & there's nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter. sure canelo took his time to fight ggg & took a money fight with jr but he fought ggg before any of these other middleweights did, felix sturm, sergio martinez, miguel cotto. building or marinating a fight is nothing new, there are countless fights we missed out on long before canelo v ggg because of this. & yes he fought ggg again in an immediate rematch after many thought he lost the first fight, another big risk. dmitry was again another risk. i also want to see the david b fight because i think he's earned it by fighting the best opposition but he only won the interim belt against david lemieux after losing his belt twice outside the ring due to his own mistakes. david morrell won his belt nearly a year before that & william scull was made the ibf mandatory two months after david b won his interim belt. so all these guys are in the same boat but all we hear about is david b is being ducked. i just don't understand david b moving up. i think david b v david m is the best fight in the division & want to see it. david b's manager claimed there was a signed agreement but now they don't want to pursue the fight. christian mbilli is number one in the wbc behind canelo & david b. there are good fights for david b to take at super middleweight but he's choosing to move up against a guy that was beaten into a three year retirement. maybe there's some behind the scenes stuff going on where david b might be offered canelo in september if he takes on canelo's fighter, i don't know. as i've said before i am becoming frustrated but it's not only canelo who's doing it, look how long we've waited for tyson v oleksandr, artur v dmitry, bud v errol before that, floyd v manny. if canelo doesn't fight david b or david m this year then i'll definitely be criticizing him loudly

[TIC]

Ok let’s put this Floyd v Canelo “who’s the best debate to bed once and for all with facts.

who is even making this argument?

[TitoFan]

when i talk about canelo's level, i am referring to his crossover star appeal, one of the guys in the sport that even casuals know & brings in the big money. i consider aj on that level currently & maybe naoya in japan for the little guys. some of the hate these guys get is warranted, some is unnecessary. look at the hate aj gets at times. some brought on, other times just unnecessary hate. there are those that hat on naoya & will say stuff like tank would kayo him, just to hate on him. i am a canelo fan but have stated recently that i am becoming frustrated but i can acknowledge that he has taken risks in his career & fought some of the best of his time. did all the fights happen when they should have? of course not. but canelo is not alone in this. did he take money fights instead of the best challenges at times? sure he did but again he is not alone in this. i agree that there are much better fighters than canelo in the past, look at someone like finito lopez, he's virtually unknown. guys like muhammad ali were hated at times, mike tyson went through his share, oscar de la hoya still gets his share. some of it is warranted & brought on themselves, other times it's just unnecessary hate. fighting floyd was a huge risk for canelo & there's nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter. sure canelo took his time to fight ggg & took a money fight with jr but he fought ggg before any of these other middleweights did, felix sturm, sergio martinez, miguel cotto. building or marinating a fight is nothing new, there are countless fights we missed out on long before canelo v ggg because of this. & yes he fought ggg again in an immediate rematch after many thought he lost the first fight, another big risk. dmitry was again another risk. i also want to see the david b fight because i think he's earned it by fighting the best opposition but he only won the interim belt against david lemieux after losing his belt twice outside the ring due to his own mistakes. david morrell won his belt nearly a year before that & william scull was made the ibf mandatory two months after david b won his interim belt. so all these guys are in the same boat but all we hear about is david b is being ducked. i just don't understand david b moving up. i think david b v david m is the best fight in the division & want to see it. david b's manager claimed there was a signed agreement but now they don't want to pursue the fight. christian mbilli is number one in the wbc behind canelo & david b. there are good fights for david b to take at super middleweight but he's choosing to move up against a guy that was beaten into a three year retirement. maybe there's some behind the scenes stuff going on where david b might be offered canelo in september if he takes on canelo's fighter, i don't know. as i've said before i am becoming frustrated but it's not only canelo who's doing it, look how long we've waited for tyson v oleksandr, artur v dmitry, bud v errol before that, floyd v manny. if canelo doesn't fight david b or david m this year then i'll definitely be criticizing him loudly

When you refer to crossover stars who even casuals know, and bring in the big money... I suppose AJ could be included in that group. But IMO not Inoue. Casuals don't even acknowledge the little guys. The fact that Inoue has the recognition that he does is a testament of just how incredible he is... and how very much higher he should be on anybody's p4p listings than Canelo Alvarez. Inoue has basically FORCED people to take notice.

The AJ hate? Some of it may come from his failure to secure a fight against Wilder (whether his fault or not). Some of it may come from his strange behavior in the wake of his first loss to Usyk. Who knows. I've liked him ever since he ended the boring Wlad reign. As for Inoue, I've never seen or heard any hate toward him. What reason could there be? That he only fights in Japan? That may be true of many a great Japanese fighter, but not Naoya.

We'll never agree on Canelo obviously, because you're a fan and I'm a hater. But let's look at a couple of Canelo's calculated moves.

Rocky Fielding.

Sure. Plenty of fighters have gone up a weight division to challenge for a new title. But Canelo's move was totally calculated, against one of the weakest champions he could've ever picked out. Compare that against a Sugar Ray Leonard, who went up to middleweight to challenge Marvin Hagler in 1987. Michael Spinks, who challenged Larry Holmes at heavyweight in 1985. Trinidad, when he went up to middleweight to fight Joppy. All these guys went up against formidable opposition at the new weights... and stayed there. Canelo grabbed the shiny trinket from a weak zebra... and went quickly scurrying back to middleweight. Really?

Sergey Kovalev

Another brief jump just to grab a belt and go scurrying back down before having to face anyone else. Kovalev was already a two-time knockout loser, having been exposed as a bully with a weak underbelly by that formidable of punchers... Andre Ward . Canelo saw his window of opportunity, and went for it. Did he stay at 175? Of course not. He took advantage of a man who later has said publicly that conditions were such that his winning was "impossible"... and many observers accused of taking a dive. Canelo wasn't chasing greatness. He was chasing a low-hanging fruit at another weight.

168 is Canelo's natural weight at this point. But he thought nothing of trying to drag 39-year old Badou Jack down to 180 (from 200 pounds) to fight for the (cough) cruiserweight title. Ginger gets more shameless with age.

Finally... he fights a dude from two weight classes down (not the 1st time, mind you) rather than acknowledge the guy in his own division that even Canelo's own family is probably secretly begging Canelo to fight, lest his legacy suffers.

I'll be one saying good riddance when Canelo finally hangs up his gloves.

[TIC]

to be fair i did say maybe naoya, mainly because of the money he brings for his opponents. aoya did an interview with the ring recently where he said some things about american fighters. as you can imagine some didn't take it well. race can be another reason for hate, jealousy could be another reason. you can pick through any top fighters record & find soft touches, this is nothing new. i think the sergey win was pretty good, did canelo have his advantages? sure but again nothing new. canelo's run through super middle to become undisputed was impressive. many fighters have brought guys up from lower divisions, again nothing new. just to give the fights you highlighted a bit of context. the rocky fight was sandwiched between the back to back ggg fights & danny jacobs. rocky also held a belt in the division above, which helped lead to the callum fight. the sergey fight was sandwiched between danny & callum a unified belt holder. sergey was also a belt holder in a division two weights above where canelo had fought last. the jermell fight was the first of his new pbc contract & was supposed to be jermall. jermell was also an undisputed champion

[Primo Carnera]

Ok let’s put this Floyd v Canelo “who’s the best debate to bed once and for all with facts.

who is even making this argument?

Lots of people. It wasn’t aimed at you .

[Primo Carnera]

when i talk about canelo's level, i am referring to his crossover star appeal, one of the guys in the sport that even casuals know & brings in the big money. i consider aj on that level currently & maybe naoya in japan for the little guys. some of the hate these guys get is warranted, some is unnecessary. look at the hate aj gets at times. some brought on, other times just unnecessary hate. there are those that hat on naoya & will say stuff like tank would kayo him, just to hate on him. i am a canelo fan but have stated recently that i am becoming frustrated but i can acknowledge that he has taken risks in his career & fought some of the best of his time. did all the fights happen when they should have? of course not. but canelo is not alone in this. did he take money fights instead of the best challenges at times? sure he did but again he is not alone in this. i agree that there are much better fighters than canelo in the past, look at someone like finito lopez, he's virtually unknown. guys like muhammad ali were hated at times, mike tyson went through his share, oscar de la hoya still gets his share. some of it is warranted & brought on themselves, other times it's just unnecessary hate. fighting floyd was a huge risk for canelo & there's nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter. sure canelo took his time to fight ggg & took a money fight with jr but he fought ggg before any of these other middleweights did, felix sturm, sergio martinez, miguel cotto. building or marinating a fight is nothing new, there are countless fights we missed out on long before canelo v ggg because of this. & yes he fought ggg again in an immediate rematch after many thought he lost the first fight, another big risk. dmitry was again another risk. i also want to see the david b fight because i think he's earned it by fighting the best opposition but he only won the interim belt against david lemieux after losing his belt twice outside the ring due to his own mistakes. david morrell won his belt nearly a year before that & william scull was made the ibf mandatory two months after david b won his interim belt. so all these guys are in the same boat but all we hear about is david b is being ducked. i just don't understand david b moving up. i think david b v david m is the best fight in the division & want to see it. david b's manager claimed there was a signed agreement but now they don't want to pursue the fight. christian mbilli is number one in the wbc behind canelo & david b. there are good fights for david b to take at super middleweight but he's choosing to move up against a guy that was beaten into a three year retirement. maybe there's some behind the scenes stuff going on where david b might be offered canelo in september if he takes on canelo's fighter, i don't know. as i've said before i am becoming frustrated but it's not only canelo who's doing it, look how long we've waited for tyson v oleksandr, artur v dmitry, bud v errol before that, floyd v manny. if canelo doesn't fight david b or david m this year then i'll definitely be criticizing him loudly

First off , great post, lots of fair points.
Secondly , in my opinion , the AJ “hate” comes from “unconscious”racism .
Thirdly , again in my opinion,Benavidez was resigned to not getting the Canelo fight and knows he can’t stay at SMW any longer. He is a fucking big guy , who in his teens was 250lb!
Finally, be prepared to “Criticise him loudly”

[TIC]

if david b is going to light heavy then i think his days are done at super middle. if we ever get the fight at a higher weight we'll have to wait & see but if he is seriously wanting the canelo fight i don't think moving out of the division is the best way to try & force the fight. fighting & beating the other top contenders (david m, jaime, christian mbilli, william scull & edgar) would do more for david b's career & legacy & towards forcing a canelo fight in my opinion than leaving the division. the other thing i wanted to add was if the wba belt consolidation plan that i think started back in august twenty one is still a thing? they were going on about edgar being the wba mandatory for canelo yesterday but david m should be first in line for a shot at canelo's wba belt

[Primo Carnera]

if david b is going to light heavy then i think his days are done at super middle. if we ever get the fight at a higher weight we'll have to wait & see but if he is seriously wanting the canelo fight i don't think moving out of the division is the best way to try & force the fight. fighting & beating the other top contenders (david m, jaime, christian mbilli, william scull & edgar) would do more for david b's career & legacy & towards forcing a canelo fight in my opinion than leaving the division. the other thing i wanted to add was if the wba belt consolidation plan that i think started back in august twenty one is still a thing? they were going on about edgar being the wba mandatory for canelo yesterday but david m should be first in line for a shot at canelo's wba belt

You’re slightly missing my point. Benavidez wanted the fight , who doesn’t ? It’s the golden ticket!
I don’t think he’s looking to “force the Canelo fight”, I think he just felt that as he and Canelo are the best 2 guys in the division , so he deserves it rather than waiting for Canelo to fight the John Ryders and 2 weight lighter Charlo of this World.
So I’m pretty sure that if you or I put ourselves in Benavidez’s shoes, we would feel like we’re being ducked or avoided.
So now he’s had enough , he’s not prepared to do a “GGG” and hang on Canelo’s nuts and get on with his career.
And like you quite rightly said, Benavidez will not be going back down to SMW.
So if the fight were ever to happen, it would be at LHW. I personally believe Benavidez feels if Canelo wouldn’t fight him at SMW, absolutely no chance of him fighting him at LHW.
But career wise, assuming he doesn’t get the Canelo fight, the next best money is at LHW rather than SMW.
Add to that he can’t keep making 168lb and it’s a no brainier really.

[Spicoli]

I swear if they roll Berlanga out I will not stop laughing . Does anyone remember when Eddie floated this back at the time of signing Berlanga? He literally dropped the 'we'll see in his first fight where he's at and who knows if it leads to Canelo'. Canelo is literally out of options by his own choosing too. We are just 69 days out vs TBA. This all very much reads like the playbook of set the bar low and then the fans will bounce back when they realize it's not a woeful Charlo etc. We settle on anything.

[TIC]

if david b is going to light heavy then i think his days are done at super middle. if we ever get the fight at a higher weight we'll have to wait & see but if he is seriously wanting the canelo fight i don't think moving out of the division is the best way to try & force the fight. fighting & beating the other top contenders (david m, jaime, christian mbilli, william scull & edgar) would do more for david b's career & legacy & towards forcing a canelo fight in my opinion than leaving the division. the other thing i wanted to add was if the wba belt consolidation plan that i think started back in august twenty one is still a thing? they were going on about edgar being the wba mandatory for canelo yesterday but david m should be first in line for a shot at canelo's wba belt

You’re slightly missing my point. Benavidez wanted the fight , who doesn’t ? It’s the golden ticket!
I don’t think he’s looking to “force the Canelo fight”, I think he just felt that as he and Canelo are the best 2 guys in the division , so he deserves it rather than waiting for Canelo to fight the John Ryders and 2 weight lighter Charlo of this World.
So I’m pretty sure that if you or I put ourselves in Benavidez’s shoes, we would feel like we’re being ducked or avoided.
So now he’s had enough , he’s not prepared to do a “GGG” and hang on Canelo’s nuts and get on with his career.
And like you quite rightly said, Benavidez will not be going back down to SMW.
So if the fight were ever to happen, it would be at LHW. I personally believe Benavidez feels if Canelo wouldn’t fight him at SMW, absolutely no chance of him fighting him at LHW.
But career wise, assuming he doesn’t get the Canelo fight, the next best money is at LHW rather than SMW.
Add to that he can’t keep making 168lb and it’s a no brainier really.

i agree david b wanted the fight, everyone does. i agree that david b doesn't feel he should have to force the fight. in my opinion he's beaten the better opponents to be considered the number one guy to canelo. if i was david b i'd feel i was being ducked. i'd also feel i was being ducked if i was david m or william scull who have both been waiting on a belt consolidation & mandatory shot longer than david b, not that they are more deserving though. you are probably correct that the better money is at light heavy, even though i feel david b is a better opponent, he'll probably make more to fight oleksandr & if it comes with an interim belt it puts him in the mix for the artur v dmitry winner. if david b is moving up though he needs to stop talking about a canelo fight from that point. one because i doubt he'll return to super middle & two because canelo will still be at super middle. i'll be disappointed if we don't get the canelo v david b fight & will be critical of canelo not giving us that fight at super middle but if david b goes to light heavy then there should be no more talk of the fight unless canelo moves up as well. the wbc said david b was going to be made mandatory in march, that doesn't mean canelo will be forced into the fight but it would look better for david b & the claims of ducking if he stayed at super middle & waited out the mandatory process, although i understand that he may not be able to make the weight much longer

[imp]

Ok let’s put this Floyd v Canelo “who’s the best debate to bed once and for all with facts.
Anti Floyd people say Floyd Cherry picked . Hmmmm, let’s have a look at his last 11 fights (I don’t include the McGregor fight , because as far as I’m concerned, it was more circus than pro Boxing. )

Mayweather vs. Baldomir
Baldomir was The Ring Welterweight champion and was unbeaten in 8 years.
Mayweather vs. De La Hoya
Everything was in De La Hoya’s favour. He was definitely the “A side” and WBC light-middleweight titleholder .
Mayweather vs. Hatton
Unification fight , best 2 in the division.
Comeback
Mayweather vs. Marquez
Mayweather was coming out of a 21-month retirement and Marques was The Ring lightweight champion and #2 pound-for-pound fighter.
Mayweather vs. Mosley
Andre Berto pulled out and although many say Mosley was done, he was The Ring #3 pound-for-pound . Not a bad stand in.
Mayweather vs Ortiz
Ortiz was the WBC welterweight champion .

Mayweather vs. Guerrero

Guerrero was the WBC interim welterweight champion, Ring No. 3 ranked welterweight, and the WBC's mandatory challenger and This was Mayweather's first fight since being released from jail.

Mayweather v Alvarez

“Alvarez was young and inexperienced” - he was 23 with over 40 pro fights.
“Alvarez was made to boil down” - it was 2 lbs. And it was his choice.
Mayweather was 37 YEARS OLD!

Mayweather vs. Maidana
This was a unification bout .Maidana was WBA (Super) welterweight title holder.

Mayweather vs. Maidana II
Some people thought Maidana was robbed and he probably gave Mayweather his toughest ever fight, so he rematches him and beat him fairly convincingly.

Mayweather vs. Pacquiao
Despite the fact that people said it was a few years too late ,(Bizarre seeing as that would be less beneficial to Floyd as he’s 2 years older.) they were still the 2 best fighters on the planet.

Mayweather vs. Berto
I count this as his last fight , I don’t count Macgregor. Mayweather had retired as WBA (Super) champ and Berto was the interim title holder.

Let’s compare that with Canelo ‘s last 11 opponents and see who you think had the better opposition.

Jermell Charlo
John Ryder
GGG
Bivol (LOST)
Plant
Saunders
Yildirim
Callum Smith
Kovalev
Jacobs
Fielding

So we don’t need to discuss this ever again, do we?

Post of the year