Thread: Erik's standing in his era

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

its true eric was past it by the third but its also true pac makes his oppenent age rapidly. everybody told eric it was suicide to take on pac three in a row. by the third fight every punch eric threw pacman just ate up and continued his onslaught.

what is bullshit about fans is that, we make excuses either for our favorite or against the ones we dislike. we have to be fair, if you say eric was old and past it when pac fought him. can you also say pac was prime when they first met?

get real guys. both pac and eric were not prime when they first fought. eric won it and he should but include all the details coming into that fight we damn well suppose to get a eric victory.too bad only a few have the brain power to process how pac-em 1 turned into a trilogy.

anyways, war veteran eric beat young gun pacman in the first fight.

improving war scard pacman defeats aging division king eric in the second.

prime pacman overwhelms decline warrior morales.

now if we want to talk about who wins prime vs prime. its easy to count out the idiots. they give themselves away.when they put one demensional pacman against el terrible. when we talk about prime vs prime we are only including 2007 pacman the top 2 p4p pacman. not the one demensional pacman that lost to eric not the one that drew with jmm and not the one that embarrassed marco. wow think about it, one demensional pacman already has a legendary resume.

anyways prime vs prime eric vs pac it has to be 2002 eric vs 2007 pacman. a 126 pounder eric vs a 130 pounder pacman. they would have to meet at a catch weight. ironically prime pacman is the one from a heavier division because he reach his prime heavier then eric. that alone breaks erics iron chin going against stronger fitted heavier pacman. eric would need to box theres no way he knocks out pacman. but eventually he`ll brawl which is why his taylored fit for pacs destruction.

somebody said 9 out 10 prime eric beats prime pacman? hahahaha like I said guys like this gives themselves away.

well said. cc on you JuliusRain.

That was a good post julius, and id just like to state i'm not a fan of Morales or Pacquaio. Respect both fighters and will watch them but they're by no means favourites of mine, so i reckon i was fairly impartial.
But i do feel p4p prime 4 prime Morales is just that little bit ahead of Manny. Although Manny is still going so he may change my mind in the future.

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

its true eric was past it by the third but its also true pac makes his oppenent age rapidly. everybody told eric it was suicide to take on pac three in a row. by the third fight every punch eric threw pacman just ate up and continued his onslaught.

what is bullshit about fans is that, we make excuses either for our favorite or against the ones we dislike. we have to be fair, if you say eric was old and past it when pac fought him. can you also say pac was prime when they first met?

get real guys. both pac and eric were not prime when they first fought. eric won it and he should but include all the details coming into that fight we damn well suppose to get a eric victory.too bad only a few have the brain power to process how pac-em 1 turned into a trilogy.

anyways, war veteran eric beat young gun pacman in the first fight.

improving war scard pacman defeats aging division king eric in the second.

prime pacman overwhelms decline warrior morales.

now if we want to talk about who wins prime vs prime. its easy to count out the idiots. they give themselves away.when they put one demensional pacman against el terrible. when we talk about prime vs prime we are only including 2007 pacman the top 2 p4p pacman. not the one demensional pacman that lost to eric not the one that drew with jmm and not the one that embarrassed marco. wow think about it, one demensional pacman already has a legendary resume.

anyways prime vs prime eric vs pac it has to be 2002 eric vs 2007 pacman. a 126 pounder eric vs a 130 pounder pacman. they would have to meet at a catch weight. ironically prime pacman is the one from a heavier division because he reach his prime heavier then eric. that alone breaks erics iron chin going against stronger fitted heavier pacman. eric would need to box theres no way he knocks out pacman. but eventually he`ll brawl which is why his taylored fit for pacs destruction.

somebody said 9 out 10 prime eric beats prime pacman? hahahaha like I said guys like this gives themselves away.

You have some good points and I give you a CC 121 for some good arguments. But it is not nice to blindely insult other members of the forum just because they don't share your point of view. So here is an SC 68 to go with it as well.

It is clear we have defferent ideas of what prime means. Someone(can't remember who) in this forum said it best when he said "some people confuse prime with peak". It is not the same. A peak is probably one year, or two or three fights. Prime is much longer.

I think Eric reached his prime about a year after he got his title around 98 when he KOd Junio Jones in 4. A year later he beat Wayne McCulloug and a year after that was his first fight with Barrera. His prime endured up to the first fight with PAC which was pretty much his last great fight. He has not won since.

Pacquiao's prime was around 2002 when he became a two division world champion and was at a confertable weight. A year after that he beat Barrera and a year after that he drew with Marquez. He is still in his prime and is now at his peak. I believe his peak was around the second Moralez fight and will end shortly after he fights Barrera and possible re-match with Marquez. You will see him slightly diminish from that point on all the while remaining in his prime.

In conclusion. Yes their first fight was prime 4 prime and Moralez won.

Good point on prime over peak.

Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

its true eric was past it by the third but its also true pac makes his oppenent age rapidly. everybody told eric it was suicide to take on pac three in a row. by the third fight every punch eric threw pacman just ate up and continued his onslaught.

what is bullshit about fans is that, we make excuses either for our favorite or against the ones we dislike. we have to be fair, if you say eric was old and past it when pac fought him. can you also say pac was prime when they first met?

get real guys. both pac and eric were not prime when they first fought. eric won it and he should but include all the details coming into that fight we damn well suppose to get a eric victory.too bad only a few have the brain power to process how pac-em 1 turned into a trilogy.

anyways, war veteran eric beat young gun pacman in the first fight.

improving war scard pacman defeats aging division king eric in the second.

prime pacman overwhelms decline warrior morales.

now if we want to talk about who wins prime vs prime. its easy to count out the idiots. they give themselves away.when they put one demensional pacman against el terrible. when we talk about prime vs prime we are only including 2007 pacman the top 2 p4p pacman. not the one demensional pacman that lost to eric not the one that drew with jmm and not the one that embarrassed marco. wow think about it, one demensional pacman already has a legendary resume.

anyways prime vs prime eric vs pac it has to be 2002 eric vs 2007 pacman. a 126 pounder eric vs a 130 pounder pacman. they would have to meet at a catch weight. ironically prime pacman is the one from a heavier division because he reach his prime heavier then eric. that alone breaks erics iron chin going against stronger fitted heavier pacman. eric would need to box theres no way he knocks out pacman. but eventually he`ll brawl which is why his taylored fit for pacs destruction.

somebody said 9 out 10 prime eric beats prime pacman? hahahaha like I said guys like this gives themselves away.

You have some good points and I give you a CC 121 for some good arguments. But it is not nice to blindely insult other members of the forum just because they don't share your point of view. So here is an SC 68 to go with it as well.

It is clear we have defferent ideas of what prime means. Someone(can't remember who) in this forum said it best when he said "some people confuse prime with peak". It is not the same. A peak is probably one year, or two or three fights. Prime is much longer.

I think Eric reached his prime about a year after he got his title around 98 when he KOd Junio Jones in 4. A year later he beat Wayne McCulloug and a year after that was his first fight with Barrera. His prime endured up to the first fight with PAC which was pretty much his last great fight. He has not won since.

Pacquiao's prime was around 2002 when he became a two division world champion and was at a confertable weight. A year after that he beat Barrera and a year after that he drew with Marquez. He is still in his prime and is now at his peak. I believe his peak was around the second Moralez fight and will end shortly after he fights Barrera and possible re-match with Marquez. You will see him slightly diminish from that point on all the while remaining in his prime.

In conclusion. Yes their first fight was prime 4 prime and Moralez won.

Interesting theory. Cc.

Erik is my favorite Mexican boxer.

I dont know. Morales and Pacquiao are my two favorite fighters and I dont think, Prime for Prime, Morales would beat Pacquiao any more than Pacquiao would beat Morales.

The Morales that we saw beat Pacquiao was an already matured Morales, past his prime. A matured Morales had the discipline to box for most of that fight. A slight bit younger Morales would've definitely traded much more during the course of the fight and been tactically in favor of Pacquiao.

If they fought ten times prime for prime, i think it would go 6 wins for Pacquiao, 4 wins for Morales.

well now its peak vs peak. come one anytime someone says prime vs prime its expected to mean best vs best. u can't possibly believe pac was prime when he was clearly still a 26 year old limited sensation. did you not watch his fights. he was beating good world champs and undefeated fighters(ladwaba,jolio,lucero) but that was immature pacman that just wants to get the k.o. that does not mean his prime just because his beating world champs like mab. it was clear he wasn't prime,then you talk about peak. pacs speed and condition is always at its peak. all the way below the 126 division. the only times pac condition was not in its peak was when he was weight drain staying to long in a light division that was when he was k.o by body and low blow shot. don't forget if u think eric has an iron chin pacs chin at its peak from mab to jmm to eric is as tough as any.

your talking about peak last for only a while,while prime is over a longer period. prime means reaching a level where improvement has been develop. it does not mean when you start beating good competition. it does not mean when you get the fame. it means when you reach the point where the only reason for most people to think you'll lose is when they believe u have too many distraction. remember when guys would bet against immature pac because they say his one demensional but now his prime do you still hear them guys say that. NOPE,they just lay their hopes in the little theory of pac has too many distraction.


anyways you got it mix up. pacman was clearly one demensional and young. but most of his traits such as his speed and condition were always at its peak. overall ability reach his prime after the first eric fight.that's what prime is. when you have achieve overall ability. not when your young and one demensional.

erics chin has always been at its peak but he was NO longer prime when he fought pac the first time. Niether of them were prime in that first fight. but in that first fight they had traits that stayed consistantly peak even throughout their careers. that's what made the first legendary because although we had young pacman vs aging eric it was still a blast to watch because of the traits they had that always stay at its peak. without eric iron chin or pacs speed, that fight wouldn't have been close. thankfully some traits just always stays at its peak.

hopefully you get what peak is now and prime.

peak is what makes prime. peak could be the fighters traits then overall leads to prime.

you put erics traits and all at its peak you get a prime el terrible. that's what you mean when you say prime vs prime. you include fighters traits at its peak to get the prime version.

so pacs traits all at its peak vs el terribles traits at its peak. you get prime vs prime. I rather roll with pacman, nobody in history have ever come like pacman. a southpaw with menacing speed condition and power. while prime eric may have box but I can't see anybody boxing prime pac for 12 rounds. prime vs prime pac is bigger stronger and more discplened. eric will get easily sucker in to brawl. pacman via tko.eric quitting due to body shots.

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

well now its peak vs peak. come one anytime someone says prime vs prime its expected to mean best vs best. u can't possibly believe pac was prime when he was clearly still a 26 year old limited sensation. did you not watch his fights. he was beating good world champs and undefeated fighters(ladwaba,jolio,lucero) but that was immature pacman that just wants to get the k.o. that does not mean his prime just because his beating world champs like mab. it was clear he wasn't prime,then you talk about peak. pacs speed and condition is always at its peak. all the way below the 126 division. the only times pac condition was not in its peak was when he was weight drain staying to long in a light division that was when he was k.o by body and low blow shot. don't forget if u think eric has an iron chin pacs chin at its peak from mab to jmm to eric is as tough as any.

your talking about peak last for only a while,while prime is over a longer period. prime means reaching a level where improvement has been develop. it does not mean when you start beating good competition. it does not mean when you get the fame. it means when you reach the point where the only reason for most people to think you'll lose is when they believe u have too many distraction. remember when guys would bet against immature pac because they say his one demensional but now his prime do you still hear them guys say that. NOPE,they just lay their hopes in the little theory of pac has too many distraction.


anyways you got it mix up. pacman was clearly one demensional and young. but most of his traits such as his speed and condition were always at its peak. overall ability reach his prime after the first eric fight.that's what prime is. when you have achieve overall ability. not when your young and one demensional.

erics chin has always been at its peak but he was NO longer prime when he fought pac the first time. Niether of them were prime in that first fight. but in that first fight they had traits that stayed consistantly peak even throughout their careers. that's what made the first legendary because although we had young pacman vs aging eric it was still a blast to watch because of the traits they had that always stay at its peak. without eric iron chin or pacs speed, that fight wouldn't have been close. thankfully some traits just always stays at its peak.

hopefully you get what peak is now and prime.

peak is what makes prime. peak could be the fighters traits then overall leads to prime.

you put erics traits and all at its peak you get a prime el terrible. that's what you mean when you say prime vs prime. you include fighters traits at its peak to get the prime version.

so pacs traits all at its peak vs el terribles traits at its peak. you get prime vs prime. I rather roll with pacman, nobody in history have ever come like pacman. a southpaw with menacing speed condition and power. while prime eric may have box but I can't see anybody boxing prime pac for 12 rounds. prime vs prime pac is bigger stronger and more discplened. eric will get easily sucker in to brawl. pacman via tko.eric quitting due to body shots.

Well I guess we just have a different point of view on the situation.

But just so you understand what I meant a little better. At no point did I mention ability, age or chin. When I say peak I mean the high point of his career. The point when the fighter reachest the hight of his skills and boxing knowledge and combines them to make the absolute best version of himself. Usually when a world class fighter reachest this point he becomes nearly unbeatable. Think Tyson in his days as Undisputed HW champion, think Trinidad at 154 or Jones Jr at 168. Only the greatest fighters of all time would have beaten them at that stage in their careers. That is where PACMAN is at now. At his peak. He is considered unbeatable right now. This is why it is hard to imagine Morales, even a prime Morales, beating him. But you forget that Morales also had a time when he was considered unbeatable.

Basically we are saying the same thing, we are just naming it differently

Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

well now its peak vs peak. come one anytime someone says prime vs prime its expected to mean best vs best. u can't possibly believe pac was prime when he was clearly still a 26 year old limited sensation. did you not watch his fights. he was beating good world champs and undefeated fighters(ladwaba,jolio,lucero) but that was immature pacman that just wants to get the k.o. that does not mean his prime just because his beating world champs like mab. it was clear he wasn't prime,then you talk about peak. pacs speed and condition is always at its peak. all the way below the 126 division. the only times pac condition was not in its peak was when he was weight drain staying to long in a light division that was when he was k.o by body and low blow shot. don't forget if u think eric has an iron chin pacs chin at its peak from mab to jmm to eric is as tough as any.

your talking about peak last for only a while,while prime is over a longer period. prime means reaching a level where improvement has been develop. it does not mean when you start beating good competition. it does not mean when you get the fame. it means when you reach the point where the only reason for most people to think you'll lose is when they believe u have too many distraction. remember when guys would bet against immature pac because they say his one demensional but now his prime do you still hear them guys say that. NOPE,they just lay their hopes in the little theory of pac has too many distraction.


anyways you got it mix up. pacman was clearly one demensional and young. but most of his traits such as his speed and condition were always at its peak. overall ability reach his prime after the first eric fight.that's what prime is. when you have achieve overall ability. not when your young and one demensional.

erics chin has always been at its peak but he was NO longer prime when he fought pac the first time. Niether of them were prime in that first fight. but in that first fight they had traits that stayed consistantly peak even throughout their careers. that's what made the first legendary because although we had young pacman vs aging eric it was still a blast to watch because of the traits they had that always stay at its peak. without eric iron chin or pacs speed, that fight wouldn't have been close. thankfully some traits just always stays at its peak.

hopefully you get what peak is now and prime.

peak is what makes prime. peak could be the fighters traits then overall leads to prime.

you put erics traits and all at its peak you get a prime el terrible. that's what you mean when you say prime vs prime. you include fighters traits at its peak to get the prime version.

so pacs traits all at its peak vs el terribles traits at its peak. you get prime vs prime. I rather roll with pacman, nobody in history have ever come like pacman. a southpaw with menacing speed condition and power. while prime eric may have box but I can't see anybody boxing prime pac for 12 rounds. prime vs prime pac is bigger stronger and more discplened. eric will get easily sucker in to brawl. pacman via tko.eric quitting due to body shots.

Well I guess we just have a different point of view on the situation.

But just so you understand what I meant a little better. At no point did I mention ability, age or chin. When I say peak I mean the high point of his career. The point when the fighter reachest the hight of his skills and boxing knowledge and combines them to make the absolute best version of himself. Usually when a world class fighter reachest this point he becomes nearly unbeatable. Think Tyson in his days as Undisputed HW champion, think Trinidad at 154 or Jones Jr at 168. Only the greatest fighters of all time would have beaten them at that stage in their careers. That is where PACMAN is at now. At his peak. He is considered unbeatable right now. This is why it is hard to imagine Morales, even a prime Morales, beating him. But you forget that Morales also had a time when he was considered unbeatable.

Basically we are saying the same thing, we are just naming it differently

Cc to both of you Julius +122 and "Rookie" +69

I'm aware how good el terrible was, but what's even scarier is that we don't really know how good pac is. atleast not yet, we are not yet aware how good pac is or how good he`ll get. we`ve seen the best of eric jmm and mab. but have we really seen the best of pacman. anytime anyone want to put pac against anyone prime vs prime we have to keep in mind pacman may be just beginning his prime era.

back to the topic though. el terrible I rank above marco inside top 10. I don't have time to make a list but eric is above tito oscar and mosley too. all of those guys lose it there prime. eric only lose to marco in a close war. jones was near unbeatable but he handpicked and division hop. bhop established a kingdom at middleweight taking on every comer in the division,that's more empressive to me thant division skipping and collecting abc titles. winky spent most of his career as a journeyman,thanks to mosley winky got the credit he deserved but even though winky is a defensive wizard, I can't rate him higher than jones or bhop. prolly higher than james toney I`ll have eric and winky maybe top five marco trailing just a step behind. anyways that's just a little to it I will try to make a list of mine if I can to show where I think eric is. I prolly won't include pac in the list because his still young and on the rise.

Originally Posted by Julius Rain

I'm aware how good el terrible was, but what's even scarier is that we don't really know how good pac is. atleast not yet, we are not yet aware how good pac is or how good he`ll get. we`ve seen the best of eric jmm and mab. but have we really seen the best of pacman. anytime anyone want to put pac against anyone prime vs prime we have to keep in mind pacman may be just beginning his prime era.

back to the topic though. el terrible I rank above marco inside top 10. I don't have time to make a list but eric is above tito oscar and mosley too. all of those guys lose it there prime. eric only lose to marco in a close war. jones was near unbeatable but he handpicked and division hop. bhop established a kingdom at middleweight taking on every comer in the division,that's more empressive to me thant division skipping and collecting abc titles. winky spent most of his career as a journeyman,thanks to mosley winky got the credit he deserved but even though winky is a defensive wizard, I can't rate him higher than jones or bhop. prolly higher than james toney I`ll have eric and winky maybe top five marco trailing just a step behind. anyways that's just a little to it I will try to make a list of mine if I can to show where I think eric is. I prolly won't include pac in the list because his still young and on the rise.

I really think Pac can take on Juan "baby bull" Diaz @ 135. These guys has been calling out each other.

Now that's the real ultimate test for Pac.

Originally Posted by brucelee

Prime Morales would have beaten a Prime Barrera . . . .

That's demonstrably untrue. They were both at their primes in the first fight. Morales was arguably more in his prime than Barrera was.

Morales is a legend and one of the best Mexican fighters ever. Incredibly skilled,fought all types of styles and won. Beat a whos who of the lower weights: Manny,MAB,Junior Jones,Ayala,Chzvez,Espades,Hernandez,Zaragoza,McCo llough,Chi etc etc His resume is one of the more impressive of this generation. It's a shame he reached his decline so soon but all those wars were going to cath up to him at some point. Prime for prime,P4P,I'd take Morales over Manny. I won't go into too much depth needless to say,they both have AMAZING fighting spirits and ability to take a punch but I just feel Morales was the more rounded fighter and obviously when he was younger,he could war/control fights even more than he could in the first Morales Pac fight.Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by El Gamo

Morales is a legend and one of the best Mexican fighters ever. Incredibly skilled,fought all types of styles and won. Beat a whos who of the lower weights: Manny,MAB,Junior Jones,Ayala,Chzvez,Espades,Hernandez,Zaragoza,McCo llough,Chi etc etc His resume is one of the more impressive of this generation. It's a shame he reached his decline so soon but all those wars were going to cath up to him at some point. Prime for prime,P4P,I'd take Morales over Manny. I won't go into too much depth needless to say,they both have AMAZING fighting spirits and ability to take a punch but I just feel Morales was the more rounded fighter and obviously when he was younger,he could war/control fights even more than he could in the first Morales Pac fight.Just my opinion.

prime for prime when morales could takea punch i'd pick him to knock pac out... if he what he had in the first barrera fight no way do i see pac beating him or even going the full 12...

not going the full 12? what makes u think that? eric was great but pac is as great now and may as well be even greater.