Thread: Haye vs Wlad Klitschko

Originally Posted by Lyle

I've stated in several threads that Wlad is too experienced for David Haye.

Yeah I think I remember you mentioning it once or twice.

Originally Posted by Lyle

I may add a qualifier to that remark saying that "Wlad got hit behind the head" but it doesn't make the 3 knockdowns go away...Wlad got knocked down 3 times, I am able to admit that because #1 It actually happened #2 Wlad's skill is such that he made those knockdowns not count for much and so I am comfortable in the knowledge that if in future bouts Wladimir is knocked down (even multiple times) he can still win a fight.

Lyle, I am not denying that it should have been ruled as a knock down... I must have said that 3 times now. it could have been ruled as anything... I am disputing what it means... not what the technicality of what to call it.

What I am pointing out is that you have one rule for Wlad and another for Haye:

Originally Posted by Lyle

I may add a qualifier to that remark saying that "Haye got hit whilst off balance" but it doesn't make the knockdown go away (what the ref ruled it as is irrelevant)...Haye got knocked down, I am able to admit that because #1 It actually happened #2 Haye's skill is such that he made those knockdowns not count for much and so I am comfortable in the knowledge that if in future bouts Haye is knocked down (even multiple times) he can still win a fight.

Wlad getting clubbed down 3 times by a fighter with the class of Sam Peter because he let him get too close means exactly as much as David Haye essentially slipping off balance because he stood to side on against a fighter like Monte Barrett.

ie: Not much. You know this but decide to make it irrelevant for only one fighter, why?

I don't take issue with the fact that you think Wlad will win - that is a very likely outcome... what I do take issue with is the massive bias that you have, rather than give a balanced opinion based purely on boxing knowledge you instead apply a completely different rule to two similar situations just because they suit your agenda.

You're usually a good poster Lyle, stop being such a fanboy.

Originally Posted by Lyle

Why won't you just accept that Haye got knocked down, being defensive about it just shows that you are insecure as a fan

Jesus... I am not defensive over whether haye touched the canvas... we all saw it. I am merely stating that it means nothing. EXACTLY as you are with Wlad and Bum Peter.

Originally Posted by Lyle

I could use....Odlainer Solis in the Olympics perhaps? Jean Marc Mormeck hurt David....and of course Carl Thompson rocked Haye several times.

Who is saying that Haye's chin is made out of granite Lyle... we know he doesn't have a great chin... are you repeating the same reduntant facts for a reason or do you have nothing better to do. Wlad and Haye both have fairly bad 'chins'. Can't really see the discussion here but nevermind.

Originally Posted by Lyle

My point in bringing up the Barrett knock down is that it shows a recklessness and a carelessness that a very strong technical fighter like Wladimir will take advantage of such glaring flaws. It's not what Barrett did, it's what Haye allowed to happen and don't doubt that it's going to have an effect on the fight

But why is Wlad able to learn from the mistakes the he made in allowing Sam Peter to get to close to him but Haye is not allowed to learn not to come to the inside off balance?

Originally Posted by Lyle

....let's face facts, Monte doesn't punch big and he put Haye down, and if you're just able to knock Haye down with a little punch

I thought that you agreed it was the loss of balance that made haye fall and not the concusive effect of the essentially non-punch? Bruce Lee did his one inch punch trick by making people stand off balance... how much power do you think is in a one inch punch? when you're off balance you're off balance. Power isn't a factor.

Wlad isn't going to win the fight by knocking haye off balance... if the ref scores it as a knock down it would make the fight a 10-8 round but I think the one thing we can agree on is that it's not going to points here.

There are flaws in Haye's game for sure and Wlad will be able to exploit things, I don't think balance or footwork is one of them though... shit happens. (as you have basically said about Wlad/Peter... but of course Wlad gets special treatment from you )

I was unhappy with a few things Haye did against Barrett and losing his balance wasn't one of them. Totally irrelevant, watch his footwork any other time. Talk boxing and stop harping on about the same redundant shite.

Originally Posted by AdamGB

Originally Posted by Lyle

I may add a qualifier to that remark saying that "Wlad got hit behind the head" but it doesn't make the 3 knockdowns go away...Wlad got knocked down 3 times, I am able to admit that because #1 It actually happened #2 Wlad's skill is such that he made those knockdowns not count for much and so I am comfortable in the knowledge that if in future bouts Wladimir is knocked down (even multiple times) he can still win a fight.

Lyle, I am not denying that it should have been ruled as a knock down... I must have said that 3 times now. it could have been ruled as anything... I am disputing what it means... not what the technicality of what to call it.

What I am pointing out is that you have one rule for Wlad and another for Haye:

Originally Posted by Lyle

I may add a qualifier to that remark saying that "Haye got hit whilst off balance" but it doesn't make the knockdown go away (what the ref ruled it as is irrelevant)...Haye got knocked down, I am able to admit that because #1 It actually happened #2 Haye's skill is such that he made those knockdowns not count for much and so I am comfortable in the knowledge that if in future bouts Haye is knocked down (even multiple times) he can still win a fight.

Wlad getting clubbed down 3 times by a fighter with the class of Sam Peter because he let him get too close means exactly as much as David Haye essentially slipping off balance because he stood to side on against a fighter like Monte Barrett.

ie: Not much. You know this but decide to make it irrelevant for only one fighter, why?

I don't take issue with the fact that you think Wlad will win - that is a very likely outcome... what I do take issue with is the massive bias that you have, rather than give a balanced opinion based purely on boxing knowledge you instead apply a completely different rule to two similar situations just because they suit your agenda.

You're usually a good poster Lyle, stop being such a fanboy.

YEAAAAHH BRUTHAAAAA

Adam, you may not have questioned whether or not Haye touched the canvas BUT you definently questioned whether or not it was a knockdown and that is the crux of my argument it WAS a knockdown yes because Haye was off balance but moreso because he got hit, had Barrett missed that punch would Haye have been on the canvas? DOUBTFUL!

Wladimir has been able to learn from his mistakes because #1 he's a smart fighter it has been proven, he has learned from his mistakes because he has been put into similar situations and the outcomes have been different since his losses #2 he's got a Hall of Fame trainer and #3 Wladimir has a ton of experience boxing. Wladimir has had more fights than David Haye has ROUNDS when you compare their professional careers. Has David Haye learned anything from his wins over Maccarinelli or Barrett or Bonin Has he learned anything from his loss to Carl Thompson We simply don't know because he hasn't been tested that many times.

David Haye is impressive LOOKING, I can't say one way or the other if he's "the goods" or not simply because he has 23 total fights, 22 wins, 21 KO's, 1 loss by KO/TKO and very few of those fights were on the very highest level of boxing at cruiserweight and 0 of those 23 fights took place at a high level in the heavyweight division. Can David Haye win vs Wladimir? Sure he can, I don't doubt it for a second but take the time and look at David Haye as a total fighter and see the gap in experience....

Q: Can Haye box and win on points at a high level?

A: We don't know, we've never seen it, he's never been pushed to do that, and he has rarely had an opponent that could take him the distance.

Q: Can Wladimir Klitschko box and win on points at a high level?

A: Yes, Wladimir has only had to do that 6 times but vs: Prime Sam Peter, Prime Sultan Ibragimov, Prime Chris Byrd, Everett Martin in 1998, and Wlad has 2 Technical Decisions vs DaVarryl Williamson and Mark Young.

Q: Can David Haye KO a big skilled heavyweight?

A: We don't know, we've never seen him do that, he has never fought a big skilled heavyweight who hadn't already been KO'd by a questionable puncher.

Q: Can Wladimir Klitschko KO a big skilled heavyweight?

A: Yes there are a couple of guys Wlad KO'd who are big, skilled, and hadn't been KO'd before. Tony Thompson and Jameel McCline are two that come to mind and at the time they were very skilled.

Q: Can David Haye take a punch at heavyweight?

A: We don't know, he's never had to, and he hasn't been in with a heavyweight with decent punching power.

Q: Can Wladimir Klitschko take a punch at heavyweight?

A: If it's from a smaller heavyweight with less power perhaps, he has been hurt by: Sam Peter, Corrie Sanders, and Lamon Brewster all well respected power punchers. However, he has never been KO'd by just 1 punch, a fighter MUST follow up on Wladimir to stop him (of course his 3 losses show that very thing)

Q: Can David Haye handle adversity in the ring?

A: I sure as hell don't know, I've never seen him cut, I've rarely seen him fouled and he hasn't really shown much other than he CAN get up off the canvas and win a fight as he did vs: Mormeck and Barrett.

Q: Can Wladimir Klitschko handle adversity in the ring?

A: Yes, he has been cut before and has dealt with it with no issues and he has been knocked down before and not been bothered as much as he had been earlier in his career.

There's a lot about Haye that no one can answer until the actual fight. Wladimir has experience, size, strength, experience, and power over David Haye...that's not me bragging those are just the facts bro

Of course it's a lot less likely he would of been knocked off balance if nothing had knocked him whilst he was off balance!?...

my point is that it doesn't mean anything, I keep going over this...

It was a balance issue... technically it was a knockdown but not effectively. Your original post seemed to generalised it as if it was the same as the knockdowns Hatton recently suffered etc and that is what I took issue with.

You don't need to go off on a tangent about relevant experience/attributed of Wlad mate, I am talking about nothing more than this 'knockdown'. I've stated several times that I have Haye as an underdog in this fight for reasons similar to your own but with enough attributes (speed, mobility etc) to at least have a good fighting chance.

I am saying a lack of skill (balance/footwork) not the lack of a physical attribute (chin/ability to take a punch[which he has shown a lack of before]) led to Barrett hitting Haye and David Haye landing on his ass and I am saying that this lack of skill is not good when you are fighting a fighter with Wladimir's talent.

Haye training to combat Wlad's weapons (video) | Setanta

I am not really impressed with what they showed with Haye's training. I mean sure Wlad has a long jab and it's good and all but it's him hooking off the jab that should worry Haye and his trainer.

What's the story with Adam Booth anyway? Is Haye his first big time fighter or has he worked with other fighters who have had good success??

Originally Posted by Lyle

I am not really impressed with what they showed with Haye's training. I mean sure Wlad has a long jab and it's good and all but it's him hooking off the jab that should worry Haye and his trainer.

What's the story with Adam Booth anyway? Is Haye his first big time fighter or has he worked with other fighters who have had good success??

I think Booths background is all to do with physical training and nutrition, please someone correct me if im wrong, he might of had some sort of dealings with martial arts aswell. But he has been with Haye since he picked him up as an am when he was 16 years old. But im pretty certain Haye was his first project as a boxing trainor.

The long jab on a stick is something that's been used at my gym Fitzroy Lodge for a while. Both Booth & Haye came out of here so I'm guessing someone's picked 'em up on it. It actually is surprisingly painful when you get caught in the face with, seen bloody noses & badly split lips from it, although ours is on the end of a thick wooden stick

I seriously see Haye getting blasted out in this fight.

I really hope David Haye ends up being a big SOMEBODY in the division but he will lose vs Wladimir right now. Do you guys remember when everyone said "Wlad isn't ready for Lennox Lewis" back in 2003...well that was when Wladimir had a record of 40-1 AT HEAVYWEIGHT....David Haye is 2-0 at heavyweight, he's 22-1 in his career, his amateur record is ...hell I have no idea about it, I know he lost a couple times (as amateurs do) but I don't know if he had a lot of fights and at what weight classes and vs who and what styles give him trouble etc.

Haye is the unknown...he's flashy and everything but right now he could be Mike Tyson or Audley Harrison or somewhere in the middle and that (somewhere in the middle) is where I have him pegged. I think Haye could beat some top guys but I also think some top guys could give him trouble...and the guys I would mention that would give him trouble would have people calling me a hater but I just call them on style/ability I we have seen.

Right now I see him beating most of the heavy weights out there as long as they don't enjoy a massive physical advantage over him.