Thread: Who was better....

Originally Posted by gest12645

Hearns
Hagler
Leonard

Who was the best P4p ?.. plz rate and expalain

Well, SRL won the unofficial round robin 2-0-1
Hagler was 1-1
And Hearns was 0-2-1

Add Duran, and SRL still winds by an even bigger margin.

Some might say he got a gift draw against Hearns. But this is offset by the fact he was able to come back from a long lay off and beat an ATG!

Hagler had a better record, but SRL's opponents almost from the start represented better opposition.

My choice is SRL, but this is a good question posed by the thread.

Originally Posted by Kel

Originally Posted by gest12645

Hearns
Hagler
Leonard

Who was the best P4p ?.. plz rate and expalain

That's like saying which lager is best

Cobra
San Miguel
Corona

I can't rate them in any order. All great fighters

Actuallly, Negro Modelo beats your three IMO.

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by CGM

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter

Originally Posted by DAWGSWIN

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by CGM

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

Obviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system champion

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by CGM

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez.

duh gee, can't argue with that reasoning

He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

subjective

Duran beat a ton of guys, Lots of people beat a ton of guys. I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them. 1-2

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. really? do you really think Hagler was ever in danger?

He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

oooh wow, prospects!

you ignored my second post dude, but never mind, like you, I don't want to wast my time.

Hearns is my favorite out of the three but i think Hagler was the best fighter

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by CGM

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Taeth just because one fighter can fight past 40, doesn't mean every boxer can. Take Riddick Bowe for example he was a shot fighter at 28, plus Marvin Hagler had been alot more tough fights than Bernard Hopkins. And alot of things come into it.

Marvin Hagler had tough fights against Thomas Hearns, Juan Roldan, Vito Antuofermo, Bennie Briscoe, Kevin Finnegan x2, Willie Monroe 1, and the brutal war with John Mugabi.

Plus he had 66 fights coming into the SRL fight, which is many more than Bernard Hopkins. And many more tough grueling fights than Bernard Hopkins.

Thomas Hearns wasn't a natural Welterweight he moved up as far as Cruiserweight, so he was very comfortable at Middleweight. Just look what he did to James Shuler at Middleweight, that will tell you how good his power still was at Middleweight.

A few more comments i would like to add is did you know Wilfredo Benitez, only trained 2 weeks for SRL ? why do you think people wanted a rematch ? Roberto Duran had stomach cramps in the rematch against SRL, and he actually wanted to pull out. But Don King wouldn't let him.

If you see clips of Roberto Duran's training sessions before, the rematch against SRL. You would see he was very flat.

Lastly theres no way Roberto Duran would ever mop the floor, with great fighters like Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez.

Originally Posted by Taeth

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

Marvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.

And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.

And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.

Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.

Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.

Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.

Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.

The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.

Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Originally Posted by DAWGSWIN

Originally Posted by Taeth

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

Obviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system champion

Nor was I counting Marvin Hagler's amateur career, when he was AAU champion.

And another thing, that uppercut was at best an attention getter. People drag that out constantly as if Hearns was about to KO Hagler. If anything it hastened his own demise!

Its gotta be Leonard cuz he beat em all !

If they fought 12 round fights back then, then Hearns would've won a comfortable decision against SRL first time - and we all know what happened the 2nd time.

Mind you if my Aunty had bollox sh'ed be my uncle

Going back to the Duran argument. Anybody who thinks Duran is overrated and doesn't deserve his place on the all time p4p list has only watched him on Boxrec You can only tell so much on paper!

Have a look and see how many of the most respected boxing experts/writers/pundits don't have Duran top 10 all time p4p. I don't think you'll find 1!

Originally Posted by BIG H

If they fought 12 round fights back then, then Hearns would've won a comfortable decision against SRL first time - and we all know what happened the 2nd time.

Mind you if my Aunty had bollox sh'ed be my uncle

Going back to the Duran argument. Anybody who thinks Duran is overrated and doesn't deserve his place on the all time p4p list has only watched him on Boxrec You can only tell so much on paper!

Have a look and see how many of the most respected boxing experts/writers/pundits don't have Duran top 10 all time p4p. I don't think you'll find 1!

I guess you're referring to me, since I don't see anyone else raising issues about Duran's exalted status.

Obviously has only watched him on Boxrec? OK dude if you say so. I've seen him plenty, but you go ahead and say what you want. Sure a boxer's record isn't everything, but it's a lot, unless you will tell me it doesn't count for a lot? I suppose you watched many many of his fights, and others, and done your own careful analysis? When you give your props to Calzaghe, what do you go on if it aint his record?

btw I never said he wasn't great, I only questioned whether or not he was that much greater than others who never get ranked as high. And I can give a lot of reasons based on fights they've won and lost, titles they've defended, etc. And I choose not to say yeah Duran must be top 5 just because a lot of people in the business say he is, but you go ahead and do that if you want.

Top 10 ain't too far out of line tho.

Originally Posted by DAWGSWIN

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by CGM

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

How many of those went the distance? Lets compare how many rounds they fought, Also regardless of whether Hopkins was in real fights, he has always been training, sparring, etc, etc all year round for those 20 years.

Records are like numbers; they don't lie. SRL beat both Tommy and Hagler.