Thread: Ali couldn't fight, are you effin' kiddin' me ?!!

I mean, sure, he never went to the body at all, and y'know I love a good body puncher, but so what?
He didn't NEED to go to the body.



...and maybe he had no power, and no aggressiveness, ALWAYS looking to have people chase him around the ring.
WHY?
Why should a 6'3" 216 lb man give up ground and allow himself to be chased by a 5'11" 205 lb man with only 1 punch in his arsenal: the left hook.
It's not like he was scared of little Smokin' Joe, was he, that's not why the big fast man was always giving up ground and running away from the little slow guy who only had a left hook, was he?
That short stubby heavyweight always came to fight, not run away from his opponents.
This is a fight, so stand and fight, for $#!t's sake !

...and so what if he never learned how to block a left jab properly, like what Ken Norton and Jimmy Young gave him trouble with, and big deal if he never was much of a combination puncher.

I have to admit though:
just what in the blue hell was up with all that nonsensical bouncing-around, poor excuse for footwork, hopping around the ring all the time, feet never planted properly to punch?



He didn't defend his body at all.
Hell, Ali GAVE his oppenent his body.
Like Antonio Margarito out-toughing guys, low on science but long on God-given toughness, that was Ali with his body: No defense at all.
He could just take more body-punishment than any other fighter without showing immediate effects.
It landed him in the hospital with bleeding kidneys after fights though, and led to his later renal problems.

Effin' PULLING BACK from punches ?! And right-hand-leads ?!! Hands way down at his hips?!!
Woo-hoo, Novices-R-Us !!!

Ali's clutch-and-grab was a clear pre-cursor to John Ruiz' action-packed style, John probably studied Ali to learn how to do it, especially Ali/Frazier II.
Ali sure was in his share of crap-fights. He just had much more personality and charisma than John Ruiz, so Ali gets away with the crap-fights, and The Quiet Man doesn't because his mouth wasn't loud enough to compensate.



Given all this great credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?!
Yeah, great idea, I'll just lay up against these ropes here and let this big guy beat the ever-lovin' $#!t out of me for the next 20 minutes or so until he gets tired; then I'll get him !
Sure, real scientific there, pal.
That's the best answer the great "master-boxer" could come up with? What astounding ring-science!


People say he was this great scientific boxer, not a slugger, but a great boxer.
Actually he was a truly terrible boxer regarding technique and science. Did untold damage to thousands upon thousands of impressionable young boxers who tried to copy his absolutely horrendous technique which only worked for him because of God-given speed, athleticism, and toughness.

So terrible was his technique in fact, that it makes me wonder just how in the blue hell did this guy ever get anywhere in Boxing at all !!

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I mean, sure, he never went to the body at all, and y'know I love a good body puncher, but so what?
He didn't NEED to go to the body.



...and maybe he had no power, and no aggressiveness, ALWAYS looking to have people chase him around the ring.
WHY?
Why should a 6'3" 216 lb man give up ground and allow himself to be chased by a 5'11" 205 lb man with only 1 punch in his arsenal: the left hook.
It's not like he was scared of little Smokin' Joe, was he, that's not why the big fast man was always giving up ground and running away from the little slow guy who only had a left hook, was he?
That short stubby heavyweight always came to fight, not run away from his opponents.
This is a fight, so stand and fight, for $#!t's sake !

...and so what if he never learned how to block a left jab properly, like what Ken Norton and Jimmy Young gave him trouble with, and big deal if he never was much of a combination puncher.

I have to admit though:
just what in the blue hell was up with all that nonsensical bouncing-around, poor excuse for footwork, hopping around the ring all the time, feet never planted properly to punch?



He didn't defend his body at all.
Hell, Ali GAVE his oppenent his body.
Like Antonio Margarito out-toughing guys, low on science but long on God-given toughness, that was Ali with his body: No defense at all.
He could just take more body-punishment than any other fighter without showing immediate effects.
It landed him in the hospital with bleeding kidneys after fights though, and led to his later renal problems.

Effin' PULLING BACK from punches ?! And right-hand-leads ?!! Hands way down at his hips?!!
Woo-hoo, Novices-R-Us !!!

Ali's clutch-and-grab was a clear pre-cursor to John Ruiz' action-packed style, John probably studied Ali to learn how to do it, especially Ali/Frazier II.
Ali sure was in his share of crap-fights. He just had much more personality and charisma than John Ruiz, so Ali gets away with the crap-fights, and The Quiet Man doesn't because his mouth wasn't loud enough to compensate.



Given all this great credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?!
Yeah, great idea, I'll just lay up against these ropes here and let this big guy beat the ever-lovin' $#!t out of me for the next 20 minutes or so until he gets tired; then I'll get him !
Sure, real scientific there, pal.
That's the best answer the great "master-boxer" could come up with? What astounding ring-science!


People say he was this great scientific boxer, not a slugger, but a great boxer.
Actually he was a truly terrible boxer regarding technique and science. Did untold damage to thousands upon thousands of impressionable young boxers who tried to copy his absolutely horrendous technique which only worked for him because of God-given speed, athleticism, and toughness.

So terrible was his technique in fact, that it makes me wonder just how in the blue hell did this guy ever get anywhere in Boxing at all !!

I'm sick of you idiots.

Not because I love Ali, which I don't. But because I'm sick of this thread.

Put it is blog so no one can read it please.

Also, no one gives 2 fucks what you think about Ali, or anything else for that matter.

Jesus you're like echoes, echoing the same shit over and over.

Get original.

Some valid Ali points in there no question.
Ali had an Iron will and a cracking Jaw if you think about it which got him through some serious wars.

Other than that its a pretty weird post ... Each to there own though ... Its a boxing forum so People come here to voice their opinions, Right or Wrong ;-)

One thing though Bradlee... If you wanna see a boxing masterclass then try watching what Ali did to Cleveland Williams.

Ali at his devastating best ;-)

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

Good points...and to be honest the more - longer I have followed boxing I can just about Squeeze Ali into my All time top ten fighters.

Originally Posted by Vendettos

I'm sick of you idiots.

Not because I love Ali, which I don't. But because I'm sick of this thread.

Put it is blog so no one can read it please.

Also, no one gives 2 fucks what you think about Ali, or anything else for that matter.

Jesus you're like echoes, echoing the same shit over and over.

Get original.

Hey, hey, hey, hey now, don't get all testy with the bradguy just because YOU got a problem with Muhammad Ali's station in life...

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Ali gets credit for inventing the rope-a-dope?! No he doesn't, what are you on about?

It's common knowledge that he got that from Archie Moore.
Moore called it. 'The Turtle', Ali named it the 'Rope-a-Dope'... Ali and his famous tongue just gave it a better name, but nobody thinks that he pioneered the tactic.

As for expecting a tall fighter with a much longer reach to attack a short, pressure fighter who is most dangerous when throwing short punches, instead of tying the short man up when he's close and keeping his feet moving - no, why fight your opponents ideal fight? .

Please tell me you're not a trainer? You'll get somebody hurt.

You talk like being taller and slightly heavier makes you stronger, ignoring the fact that a shorter fighter of similar weight is likely more compact, stronger and can punch with better leverage at closer range.

If you'd rather watch a fight than boxing then go to a rough bar.

As much as I love Cooper, he caught Ali because Ali was messing about and underestimating Cooper, once he tasted that hook and realised that Cooper could punch, he tore his face to ribbons in minutes.

He panicked because he was fighting blinded against one of the most feared heavyweights ever in his FIRST title fight and then his corner calmed him down? Why do you think cornermen are there in the first place? Reacting like that in your corner is hardly uncommon.

You seem to be under the impression that Ali is highly regarded for having a mastery of scientific boxing?

He had speed, toughness, reflexes, athleticism, stamina, charisma, determination, adaptability and above all self belief... He had these things in abundance and that is why he is so highly regarded, he had some boxing IQ, but certainatly not the highest on the list of talents that he had, I've never heard anybody say that Ali is the greatest because he possesed masterful, textbook boxing skill... You seem to be imagining this, much like you've imagined him getting credit for creating the rope-a-dope.

185 lb Henry Cooper:



191 lb Sonny Banks:



5′ 11½″, 205 lb Smokin' Joe Frazier:



Ali very susceptible to the left hook.
If they could do it, so could 6'½″, 192 lb Dempsey with his vaunted left hook.

^ Dude had terrific reflexes and amazing built-in radar for judging punches. That's a world-class fighter he's doing that to there.

Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Originally Posted by bradlee180

I agree that Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few younger $#!t-snaps may not be aware of.
(I don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's)



In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

The Hard Rock from Canada George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: 22 year old Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing liniment into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolutely "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? There were unquestionably a few shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions because he was the biggest draw in sports.


Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all. He talked the talk, but he walked the walk too.

Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

People are beginning to over analyze the career of Muhammad Ali, so he had some close scrapes in the early 60's...big deal. Both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were very good fighters. How lucky was Joe Frazier against Oscar Bonavena in their first fight? Let's take Sugar Ray Robinson for example, recognized throughout the boxing world as arguably the greatest fighter of all time. He had some very close calls and like Ali was the beneficiary of a long count. Fighting Artie Levine in 1946 "Sugar..was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out...Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening.

Even earlier in 1945 Robinson had his difficulties with Jose Basora The official round-by-round scorecards were: Daggert, 4-4-2; Lasky 5-4-1 in favor of Basora; Knaresborough 6-4 in favor of Robinson. It was a hard-fought but not exciting battle, except for several sizzling exchanges. Basora counterpunched effecively. Robinson landed more punches but missed a lot. Neither fighter seemed able to hurt the other. Basora's manager, Chris Dundee, said "We ain't satisfied with a draw." Robinson said "I did my beat but wasn't at my best. Basora is a tough boy, maybe not so tough as Jake LaMotta, but tough enough."

In 1942 Robinson wins a split decision over Marty Servo finally losing his first fight a year later against arch rival Jake La Motta

How does one explain Robinson's 1955 loss to 52-32-5 Ralph Tiger Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses in a row? One judge had the fight a shut out for Jones!

So before we become too critical of Ali maybe we need to take a long look at many others who had similar difficulties on the way to being 'The Greatest'

Never has a truer line been spoken.

i say the Marciano who smoked Rex Layne outhustles Ali because that Marciano could fight 30 rounds at that pace and never tire.

Ali was God gifted, he had flaws, but you cannot simply break down a talent into a bunch of do's and dont's. Boxing is 90% mental after all. Ali was FAR ahead in mental toughness then most of his opponents.

Who the hell is taking shots at Ali?

Like him or hate him, he fought in what is widely considered to be the greatest era for HW boxing, and he was on the top of the food chain.

Who cares if he got knocked down? He always got back up.

Who cares if he struggled with some opponents? What great fighter hasn't?

Who cares if he didn't throw many body punches? Obviously he didn't need to.

By the way, I love when armchair fighters/trainers sit back and like to tell legendary fighters what they SHOULD have done.

"Oh, he should have thrown more body punches/jabs/combinations/counter punches/uppercuts/ect."

"Oh, he would have won if he just threw more punches/ect."

These guys lived and breathed boxing 24/7, and were trained by guys who lived and breathed boxing 24/7. They fought every day in the gym, honing their craft. I think, in most cases, they have a much better idea what their bodies are capable of and what works best for their styles than Joe Schmo who has never trained and posts on a boxing forum.

I doubt very much Ali never threw a lot of body punches because he didn't know how to. I'm sure he had a great reason for not doing so.