Thread: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier

Originally Posted by Max Power

Originally Posted by Master

Originally Posted by Max Power

Originally Posted by Master

Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!


You are insane! They are not bums but turds.

Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.

Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.

David Haye is a turd.

George Foreman had underrated skills..

But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.

I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.

Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.

Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.

Haye looks good against his other opponents..

Basically ALL of Wlad's opponents looked good against their other opponents, but not against Wladimir.

Conclusion= It's Wlad's credit that MAKES them look bad. Klitschko's style nullifies and shuts down the opponents style.

Obviously.

Name some opponents that have looked good? Conversely they may have looked good because they were fighting poor opposition.

Holyfeild was fucking 48 not everyone is Hopkins you should not be that competitive near that age against a fucking champ. Haye in his prime best outing at hw that was beat by a fucking man at the end of 26 year career who started at fucking lhw. Max you are a idiot say all shit i am not even saying this eras that bad but you want that extreme saying its tha best bullshit. The Older brother got his face turned into a vag by a 38 year old Lewis who was out shape last time he was in that shap fucking rahman knocked him the fuck out. Wald lost to total bum in Purty and then got lit up by Sanduars who was top 10 nothing in the 90's and did really nothing but golf after he beat Wald. Bewster fucking lost his title to a man who got knocked out by fucking Briggs telling this is the best we have had come the fuck on.

Originally Posted by Mr140

Holyfeild was fucking 48 not everyone is Hopkins you should not be that competitive near that age against a fucking champ. Haye in his prime best outing at hw that was beat by a fucking man at the end of 26 year career who started at fucking lhw. Max you are a idiot say all shit i am not even saying this eras that bad but you want that extreme saying its tha best bullshit. The Older brother got his face turned into a vag by a 38 year old Lewis who was out shape last time he was in that shap fucking rahman knocked him the fuck out. Wald lost to total bum in Purty and then got lit up by Sanduars who was top 10 nothing in the 90's and did really nothing but golf after he beat Wald. Bewster fucking lost his title to a man who got knocked out by fucking Briggs telling this is the best we have had come the fuck on.

Holyfield at 48 had lost former speed and athleticism and workrate. But he maintained those other qualities. Fortunately, he had still more of these qualities to be able to match the giant Valuev. I thought it could have been a draw. Judges thought he lost!

Haye clearly beat Valuev. The problem with rating any boxer vs Valuev is that it is always a game of hit and run because of the size disparity. And any boxer is going to be fast enough to hit him. It is simply a test of tactics over 12 rounds. Of Haye, Chagaev and Holyfield, only Haye had a moment there where he nearly put the giant down.

Haye rocked up to the HW division the smallest competitor and started whacking giant boxers around and out like it was his own weight class. Basically never seen before!

Vitali punched the living shit out of Lennox at ONLY 38 which is not old, the heaviest and most experienced version of Lewis. Lennox was incredibly lucky to slash some freak cuts of VK and get stoppage. Obviously he could not beat Vitali under concventional means in a rematch and retired.

So you make excuses for LEnnox vs Rahman when no excuses exist. He was outboxed and knocked out, but you will rubbish Klitschko's for losses when there are circumstantial factors in all if them. Extreme bias.

Lennox was landing pretty well in last few rounds of the fight did not go very long. 38 is fucking old dude not prime or close to it name a top guy not named the Klitschko that is good who is 38 dude. I am biased how funny that is coming from you dude Wald is your fucking god man i said he was top 10 were is my biases at. There was no passing of the torch so to say for this division at least Tyson knocked the champs out before him. Also say what you want about Larry but he beat Mercer and McCall but was robbed. Fact is there was no torch passed because Vitali failed and at his age Lewis does not owe jack shit. Wald the champ now lost fucking Purty garbage fighter and Sanders who was a contender went off to golf after owning Wald then Brewster who was out boxed sub par guys knocks out Wald then lose to a guy who got his ass knocked out of the ring by fucking Briggs yea there way ahead of there time. Vaule being a champ is a joke in it self and if you scored that fight for anyone not named Holyfeild do not know what to say because Holyfeild landed more accurate shots and doge every thing that was thrown at him.

Originally Posted by Mr140

Lennox was landing pretty well in last few rounds of the fight did not go very long. 38 is fucking old dude not prime or close to it name a top guy not named the Klitschko that is good who is 38 dude. I am biased how funny that is coming from you dude Wald is your fucking god man i said he was top 10 were is my biases at. There was no passing of the torch so to say for this division at least Tyson knocked the champs out before him. Also say what you want about Larry but he beat Mercer and McCall but was robbed. Fact is there was no torch passed because Vitali failed and at his age Lewis does not owe jack shit. Wald the champ now lost fucking Purty garbage fighter and Sanders who was a contender went off to golf after owning Wald then Brewster who was out boxed sub par guys knocks out Wald then lose to a guy who got his ass knocked out of the ring by fucking Briggs yea there way ahead of there time. Vaule being a champ is a joke in it self and if you scored that fight for anyone not named Holyfeild do not know what to say because Holyfeild landed more accurate shots and doge every thing that was thrown at him.

Yeah Lennox was landing pretty well in the last couple of rounds, but nothing at all significant in the first few.

It's almost too stupid to point out, but possibly the most serious front to all Lennox afficinados with regards to TKO6 is that it stands to reason that the debilitating performance of Vitali in those later rounds is obviously attributed to the worsening injuries he was sustaining to his face. The fact he managed to maintain parity with Lewis with half a face in those rounds is testament to how much better he could have smashed LEnnox had he not been cut. And I don't think anybody could seriously argue that Vitali would be cut again in the rematch.

So it comes back to the cuts. You can see clearly how they occurred, because Vitali was pushing it on Lewis so furiously, LEnnox was swiping like a wild jungle cat without any recourse to technique as he was overwhelmed. Fortunately these slashing shots from Lennox managed to slice VK open. It's boxing. Vitali has to wear that loss. Just as he has to wear the Byrd loss. But it's also obvious these are un-conventional and in-conclusive stoppages which in no way prove LEnnox or Byrd's worth over Vitali at time of bout.

Both Klitschko's were good at 38. Lennox Lewis was good at 38 (he destroyed Tyson and Rahman 1-2 years earlier. Rahman being his very best performance. A 38 yr old Holyfield was a top competitor. Larry Holmes and George Foreman were top competitors in their 40's and had some of their best wins at this time. Bernard Hopkins just retired at age 50. Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pac are still the best in their eras at this age too. And so on...

38 is not old for a fighter. Take the average 20 year old, put him against the average 38 year old boxer down any gym and the older bloke usually beats them up due to strength and experience. Obviously!

The main elements that are prime in the 20's are speed and athleticism. Strength, stamina, weight, power, ring IQ and experience are all much later.

What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers.

Torch passing is a purely OTNB argument, same with ATG, HOF, number of world title wins etc etc. I deal with only objective analysis, so I'll simply hand wave that one.

Wladimir bashed the crap out of Puritty who only survived because of an iron chin. Wlad gassed because he was still green, despite 20 fights, most of them had been early round KO's, he'd never even been in those rounds before and learned the hard way that a giant boxer must pace himself. Puritty's experience also played a huge factor here and he had the punching power to exploit the exhausted Wlad.

Brewster was a similar situation but involved a serious medical condition so wasn't even really legitimate, despite being almost in a coma, he still managed to one sidedly bash Brewster until the very end.

Sanders got Wladimir, Sanders was extremely dangerous vs any boxer in the first rounds. Clearly Wladimir underestimated Sanders and didn't treat him seriously, almost exactly the same as LEnnox with McCall. Except close inspection reveals there was a massive sandwich headbutt punch which initiated the entire thing.

Where are the corresponding issues with LEnnox's losses? Or Larry's losses? Or Muhammad's losses?

These guys were all outboxed. Wladimir was never outboxed, even in the fights that he LOST! Same with Vitali! The Klitschko's HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTBOXED! (Unless you want to call the Sander's incident outboxing strictly). It's plainly obvious that Wladimir is much better than any of his conquerers, as was LEnnox.

Mentioning Puritty as a bum is a valid point, but that was one very big, tough, strong, powerful and experienced bum. Conversely you overlook that Muhammad Ali lost to 2 CRUISERWEIGHT BUMS! Jimmy Young and LEon Spinks, who were utter fetherfists. Puritty had a punchers chance, these guys could not punch through the surface tension of water. They simply outboxed Muhammad Ali.

Mike Tyson lost to another featherfist bum in Buster Douglas.

It is understandable how one can lose a fluke to a bummy puncher. But not understandable how a great boxer can lose to a bum by being outboxed unless they weren't as great as you thought they were.

Valuev is one of the slowest boxers of all time and awkward due to his weight with only limited skillset. That's a given. Although his competition is not great, he still went 50-2 and was never stopped. His enormous SIZE obviously COMPENSATES for many things and Valuev would obviously be a major factor in any era because of it!

Vitali got beat by Lennox get over it. It was punches that caused the damage get over it.

You post crap. It is something we tolerate from you. We have to get over that.

Originally Posted by Master

Vitali got beat by Lennox get over it. It was punches that caused the damage get over it.

You post crap. It is something we tolerate from you. We have to get over that.

Hmm yeah, that's why everyone demanded a rematch, because Vitali was clearly beaten right.

"What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers."

are you sure? this doesn't convince me. Let's talk about in speed and timing only
But note that the decline of all baseball or basketball players that are 38 years old in homeruns and average is enormous. My doubt is How can this be infinitely different for boxers if they are also athletes and human beings?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4AJTrC30jCN3dg

are you still sure that a boxer at 38 years old can be the same? i mean a boxer, that is to say an athlete who besides of being old recieves lots of punches to the head can ever be comparable to one of 28? I think that experience is overrated. There might be exceptions but what is the probability of exceptions appearing? 4% maybe? That's what I think

Note: I understand your other arguments though but what i for now think is that age influences a lot more that what you can see but that might be only until you explain me why boxers don't decline a lot but just a little because it might also be that a 48 years old boxer is dominating because the state of teh division is not the same than when he was 29 or so

Just talking out of his ass there have been very few champs that have been that old. At 38 you lose alot of your speed and stamina which is huge deal to a lot of fighters experience can go only so far. Most fighter are done by 33 to 35 a few make it to there late 30's like 38 very few do.

Originally Posted by fairyrak

"What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers."

are you sure? this doesn't convince me. Let's talk about in speed and timing only
But note that the decline of all baseball or basketball players that are 38 years old in homeruns and average is enormous. My doubt is How can this be infinitely different for boxers if they are also athletes and human beings?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4AJTrC30jCN3dg

are you still sure that a boxer at 38 years old can be the same? i mean a boxer, that is to say an athlete who besides of being old recieves lots of punches to the head can ever be comparable to one of 28? I think that experience is overrated. There might be exceptions but what is the probability of exceptions appearing? 4% maybe? That's what I think

Note: I understand your other arguments though but what i for now think is that age influences a lot more that what you can see but that might be only until you explain me why boxers don't decline a lot but just a little because it might also be that a 48 years old boxer is dominating because the state of teh division is not the same than when he was 29 or so

Yes I am sure. Because we see boxers of 38 champions across the board, and even older boxers who are still atleast competitive. Why the difference?

Because Baseball is fully reflex/timing dependant, which I have read makes a decline in the early 30's, other than that it isn't a really athletic sport. Basketball is a highly athletic sport and heavily reliant on agility and speed which begin to decline even earlier in the 20's.

The difference with boxing is that these qualities do decline, but what might be termed "ring-craft", "ring-IQ", or "boxing-brain" adds a dimension to boxing which is not so prevalent in these other sports.

Sometimes the young athletic lion of 20 fights will beat the veteran of 60 fights.

But sometimes the veteran of 60 fights experience will be able to overcome the young lion as well.

It can also be explained like this. Young boxers fight WITH their athleticism. Older boxers fight more with their head almost trying NOT to be athletic.

Originally Posted by Mr140

Just talking out of his ass there have been very few champs that have been that old. At 38 you lose alot of your speed and stamina which is huge deal to a lot of fighters experience can go only so far. Most fighter are done by 33 to 35 a few make it to there late 30's like 38 very few do.

Historically yes..

As time marches forward you might as well get used to it, because the so called "prime" age for a boxer, and the "competitive" ages are going to keep getting older and older all the time. Come back in ten years when 40+ yr old competitors and champs in boxing are common and then tell me the same thing.