Who was better....

[gest12645]

Hearns
Hagler
Leonard

Who was the best P4p ?.. plz rate and expalain

[CutMeMick]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

[CGM]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

[CutMeMick]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns
*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Luckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)
But people don't look at the big picture...

A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.

Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770

[CGM]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns
*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Luckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)
But people don't look at the big picture...

A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.

Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770

Actually I do think I look at the big picture.

I know he lost to all of the big 4 or 5 you rank him above, add Benitez to that list. I know he never had a succesful title defence above lightweight. I know when it comes to victories over the best there are several who have more.

Anyway I don't really have the patience to spend what will obviously be a lot of time going through these points with a fine tooth comb. Except to say that a lot of your points are subjective. I've followed the sport closely for many years, although I probably haven't watched as many fights as you have. Buying or downloading old fights is not the way I like to spend my time and/or money.

A lot of it depends on what your criteria are for greatness. Lots of room for opinion there. Sure Duran is an all time great, but to be consistently ranked top 5 by so many, I don't agree. Not so much that he doesn't deserve it, just that there are several others who are equally deserving IMO, who never get ranked as high as he does.

p.s. your list is pretty good IMO, cheers keep up the good work

[kingfrnk]

SRL

he beat them all

[CutMeMick]

I've followed the sport closely for many years, although I probably haven't watched as many fights as you have. Buying or downloading old fights is not the way I like to spend my time and/or money.

For the most part I don't have the time either but I make time...
I've have a portable DVD player, I have fights in my I-Pod, I always carry a boxing mag. so I've got something to read.
I work 1 full time job and I also do some part time work. But I squeeze in time or find a way to make time for my boxing. Fights download for me while I sleep. I burn and convert fights while I'm out doing things.

I do spend time and money on this cause it's a passion of the sport it's something that's been a part of me for so long. All I heard growing up was boxing talk between my uncles and dad. I've mentioned this before but my name is actually "Roberto" (I go by Robert) because my pops named me after Roberto Duran his fav. boxer.

So if your coming out and saying you don't understand why Duran is ranked so high up in P4P list and at the same time what you've seen of his career has been limited and is somewhat based on his record vs. SRL, Hearns & Hagler and how his record looks on paper. Then maybe you should take some time to download some fights so that you can see for yourself with your very own eyes why Duran is so highly regarded.

I just feel that Durans greatness or for that matter any boxers greatness is NOT just about numbers but like I said, skills, opposition, adversity, titles and ofcourse record/numbers is also part of it.
Duran also happens to be the 1st Latino fighter to win titles in 4 div. something that JCC couldn't do, nore Alexis. (Oddly enough the only other one to have done this is not an ATG Leo Gamez)

A lot of it depends on what your criteria are for greatness. Lots of room for opinion there. Sure Duran is an all time great, but to be consistently ranked top 5 by so many, I don't agree. Not so much that he doesn't deserve it, just that there are several others who are equally deserving IMO, who never get ranked as high as he does.

That's something I can def. agree with.
Take Alexis Arguello for example...
Nevermind his career by the numbers as far as titles, wins etc. etc.
His skills and ring generalship was amazing and so elusive.
It's fucken magical to watch him fight, yet you rarely if any see him ranked in P4P lists.

p.s. your list is pretty good IMO, cheers keep up the good work

Thanks, it's so hard to try and make a list especially a P4P list.
Like I said my list changes often, I'm sure if you ask me next week to make another one. Without looking at this one it would look different.

[ICB]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns
*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Luckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)
But people don't look at the big picture...

A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.

Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770

Roberto i know your on about me but i watched most of the fights you mentioned, and i also learnt alot more about him. And i do no longer question him. Im not sure if you have seen this thread i made after that debate we had along time ago.

But here it is.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...wrong-way.html

And as for the thread i would have to say Marvin Hagler, i thought he got a draw against SRL. And he really should have only 1 loss IMO, and even though SRL may of had better single wins.

Marvin Hagler gets the number 1 spot IMO, because he was more consistent. Where as SRL retired alot and wern't as consistent, after his best win against Thomas Hearns. He only had 8 fights in 16 years.

1 Marvin Hagler
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
3 Thomas Hearns
4 Roberto Duran

[CGM]

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Luckly I've delt with someone like you before who questioned Durans P4P status. (Not that theres anything wrong with questioning)
But people don't look at the big picture...

A boxers greatness is not measured by 1 or 2 or 3 things. It's a mixture of a handful of things. Durans great because he fought through adversity because he beat all time greats. Because he fought the best of his era, the next era and the next era. Because when he has listed as the underdog he came out on top, because when they said he was done he won. Because his skills were amazing because he could adapt to any style in the ring.

Here's a post that should put things into light a bit more for you as far as Durans career.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post436770

Roberto i know your on about me but i watched most of the fights you mentioned, and i also learnt alot more about him. And i do no longer question him. Im not sure if you have seen this thread i made after that debate we had along time ago.

But here it is.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...wrong-way.html

And as for the thread i would have to say Marvin Hagler, i thought he got a draw against SRL. And he really should have only 1 loss IMO, and even though SRL may of had better single wins.

Marvin Hagler gets the number 1 spot IMO, because he was more consistent. Where as SRL retired alot and wern't as consistent, after his best win against Thomas Hearns. He only had 8 fights in 16 years.

1 Marvin Hagler
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
3 Thomas Hearns
4 Roberto Duran

IS that your all time p4p ranking of the four ICB, or just a comparison of the time when they fought each other?

[CutMeMick]

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

As for the P4P question here's my all time P4P list.
I should say my most recent P4P list because it changes a bit as time passes and I learn more about boxers.

All of the lists I make, I base them of fighters I've seen myself with my own eyes.
I refuse to list ANY fighter whom I have not seen any fights of and have ONLY read things about. Which is why you will never see me list Saddler, Benny, Loughran, Greb etc. etc. etc. because the footage I've seen if any has been very limited.

1. SRR
2. Ali
3. Armstrong
4. Duran
5. Alexis
6. SRL
7. Pernell
8. JCC
9. Monzon
10. "Finito" Lopez

[bambamdaddio]

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

As for the P4P question here's my all time P4P list.
I should say my most recent P4P list because it changes a bit as time passes and I learn more about boxers.

All of the lists I make, I base them of fighters I've seen myself with my own eyes.
I refuse to list ANY fighter whom I have not seen any fights of and have ONLY read things about. Which is why you will never see me list Saddler, Benny, Loughran, Greb etc. etc. etc. because the footage I've seen if any has been very limited.

1. SRR
2. Ali
3. Armstrong
4. Duran
5. Alexis
6. SRL
7. Pernell
8. JCC
9. Monzon
10. "Finito" Lopez

A very wise post bud ...

[Taeth]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

[Taeth]

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

[Trainer Monkey]

What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter

[ICB]

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

Marvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.

And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.

And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.

Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.

Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.

Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.

Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.

The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.