Left hook vertical or horizontal fist?>

[Lord Harris]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??

Good point hitmandonny, Dempseys wording seems a little archaic now probably better described as a three knuckle landing, as opposed to a power line. Try it, arms length from wall in the fighting stance, with the vertical then horizontal. I mean guys, its whatever conveys most power efficently to yourselves, i have short hooking/uppercutting arms so need all the power I can get in my jabs. I did experiment with turning my jab over the way you should turn a straight right (from vertical on leaving your shoulder to diagonally down on impact) I found this good also.

I'm not discrediting the idea by any means, i'm interested and i will try it at Training.
As for "turning," the jab i have noticed fighters such as Bernard Hopkins doing this when on the defensive, they wish to put some spite behind the jab to discourage advancing opponents.
As regards this topic, iv actually looked back on some old boxing pictorials and books i have. In most of boxings origin and manuals from the early days i can see that the fist is thrown vertically.

I even have a manual which illustrates 4 kinds of jabs.
1) the vertical fisted jab you use.
2)The traditional jab
3)A "flick jab" thrown from the elbow.
4)A jab with the palm up! almost like an uppercut!!!

I think im going to try and utilise the horizontal jab more on the bag and in sparring to see how it compares, the more punches in your armoury the better. Yeh I read about those types of jabs also! Its interesting the way some fighters used the jab as punishing weapon (Tyson when he could be bothered to use it, Larry Holmes, Lewis) while others use it merely to find range and discourage almost annoy.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??

Good point hitmandonny, Dempseys wording seems a little archaic now probably better described as a three knuckle landing, as opposed to a power line. Try it, arms length from wall in the fighting stance, with the vertical then horizontal. I mean guys, its whatever conveys most power efficently to yourselves, i have short hooking/uppercutting arms so need all the power I can get in my jabs. I did experiment with turning my jab over the way you should turn a straight right (from vertical on leaving your shoulder to diagonally down on impact) I found this good also.

I'm not discrediting the idea by any means, i'm interested and i will try it at Training.
As for "turning," the jab i have noticed fighters such as Bernard Hopkins doing this when on the defensive, they wish to put some spite behind the jab to discourage advancing opponents.
As regards this topic, iv actually looked back on some old boxing pictorials and books i have. In most of boxings origin and manuals from the early days i can see that the fist is thrown vertically.

I even have a manual which illustrates 4 kinds of jabs.
1) the vertical fisted jab you use.
2)The traditional jab
3)A "flick jab" thrown from the elbow.
4)A jab with the palm up! almost like an uppercut!!!

I think im going to try and utilise the horizontal jab more on the bag and in sparring to see how it compares, the more punches in your armoury the better. Yeh I read about those types of jabs also! Its interesting the way some fighters used the jab as punishing weapon (Tyson when he could be bothered to use it, Larry Holmes, Lewis) while others use it merely to find range and discourage almost annoy.

To tell the truth, i used to use the jab myself as a battering ram, to back a guy up and use it as a valuable part of my combination arsenal, now tho its much more timid and more of a frustrating tool in order to keep guys off me.

[Sharla]

Interesting CC hitmandonny and Lord Harris

Plenty there to think about and I guess I'm more into trying it out than reading the theory initially at least so I'll do that some time when I don't have any bouts coming up to stress about

I guess I have small hands so I find that I manage to get my punches through most guards whether or not my fist is horizontal or vertical. I'd imagine a jab thrown with vertical fist might allow you to really load up on a cross following it though.

One of my coaches gets me to throw a long uppercut/jab with palm up sometimes. Seems to work well used occasionally when an opponent is expecting the normal jab. It's not seen or parried quite so easily.

I guess as a midget usually sparring bigger or stronger people I like to move back and counter a lot so I like to use a strong jab but perhaps I'll try the palm facing in jab when I really want to unload a cross or overhand.

[donnydarkoIRL]

CC returned, thanks Sharla.
At the moment, i'm using a quick, perpetually moving jab which worked well in sparring last night so i may practice it some more and apply it.

[greynotsoold]

I have always, well, most always, tried to land my jab with my thumb towards the floor. Land the hook with my thumb towards the sky. I am familiar with Ned Beaumont's books and, in my opinion, you are asking for problems by following him. That's what happened to me.
If you extend your arm, fist closed, you'll see that the 'line' goes from your index knuckle straight up your arm. Those outside knuckles...pain, folks. Lots of pain when they get sprung. Look at the hands of any boxer or real martial artist and you'll notice the same thing: the index and middle knuckles are huge and typically permanently bruised while the outside two are pushed up to about their wrist.
You throw that left hook and try to land it with your palm down and you WILL screw up your hands and your wrist. When I was in Phoenix I worked with a dozen guys from this particular gym that taught that, landing the hook with the palm down. He said it gave you more power. Really? Everyone of those guys winced when he threw a hook. It is guaranteed to mess up your wrist and your knockles.

[Lords Gym]

I have always, well, most always, tried to land my jab with my thumb towards the floor. Land the hook with my thumb towards the sky. I am familiar with Ned Beaumont's books and, in my opinion, you are asking for problems by following him. That's what happened to me.
If you extend your arm, fist closed, you'll see that the 'line' goes from your index knuckle straight up your arm. Those outside knuckles...pain, folks. Lots of pain when they get sprung. Look at the hands of any boxer or real martial artist and you'll notice the same thing: the index and middle knuckles are huge and typically permanently bruised while the outside two are pushed up to about their wrist.
You throw that left hook and try to land it with your palm down and you WILL screw up your hands and your wrist. When I was in Phoenix I worked with a dozen guys from this particular gym that taught that, landing the hook with the palm down. He said it gave you more power. Really? Everyone of those guys winced when he threw a hook. It is guaranteed to mess up your wrist and your knockles.

i agree.. ive done it both ways. you are correct about the injury being likely palms down. i think the few time i sparked my hand was throwing it this way... another good post greynotsold

[Lord Harris]

I have always, well, most always, tried to land my jab with my thumb towards the floor. Land the hook with my thumb towards the sky. I am familiar with Ned Beaumont's books and, in my opinion, you are asking for problems by following him. That's what happened to me.
If you extend your arm, fist closed, you'll see that the 'line' goes from your index knuckle straight up your arm. Those outside knuckles...pain, folks. Lots of pain when they get sprung. Look at the hands of any boxer or real martial artist and you'll notice the same thing: the index and middle knuckles are huge and typically permanently bruised while the outside two are pushed up to about their wrist.
You throw that left hook and try to land it with your palm down and you WILL screw up your hands and your wrist. When I was in Phoenix I worked with a dozen guys from this particular gym that taught that, landing the hook with the palm down. He said it gave you more power. Really? Everyone of those guys winced when he threw a hook. It is guaranteed to mess up your wrist and your knockles.

Beaumont just pretty much agrees wth what DEMPSEY says though...the jab vertical works for me anyway, it definatley gives me more snap/power. The hooks im not convinced on, it just feels awkward unless im at extremely colse range.

[md]

I have always, well, most always, tried to land my jab with my thumb towards the floor. Land the hook with my thumb towards the sky. I am familiar with Ned Beaumont's books and, in my opinion, you are asking for problems by following him. That's what happened to me.
If you extend your arm, fist closed, you'll see that the 'line' goes from your index knuckle straight up your arm. Those outside knuckles...pain, folks. Lots of pain when they get sprung. Look at the hands of any boxer or real martial artist and you'll notice the same thing: the index and middle knuckles are huge and typically permanently bruised while the outside two are pushed up to about their wrist.
You throw that left hook and try to land it with your palm down and you WILL screw up your hands and your wrist. When I was in Phoenix I worked with a dozen guys from this particular gym that taught that, landing the hook with the palm down. He said it gave you more power. Really? Everyone of those guys winced when he threw a hook. It is guaranteed to mess up your wrist and your knockles.

cc Grey. Good advice about the thumb down on the jab. But I think the shoulder joint is in a better position mechanically with the palm down on the hook - it's debatable but there's less tension on the bicep. Although, it has to be thrown properly to protect the two outmost knuckles.

[Von Milash]

Everyone's got their own thing based on their own style and body. But if you aren't being taught a palm down left hook, especially when throwing it inside, you're being disserviced. You turn the hook over, palm down, elbow up.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Good points all round.

[greynotsoold]

For the sake of debate.....Look at page 32 of the July 2007 issue of Boxing Digest. Note the position of the fist as Marquez lands that hook. I think that, if you take a survey over the years of photos of left hook landing, the huge majority land with the thumb up. BUT....I think this is the source of the confusion. You start the punch with the thumb up, but end the left hook with the palm down and the knuckles touching your right shoulder, so it turns over en route...I don't think you are best served by landing it with the palm down.

[Von Milash]

To each his own, Grey. The main thing imo is that newbs are at least TAUGHT to turn the hook over.

[donnydarkoIRL]

And also it is good to be able to do both as you may not lose the use of the hand because of the injury of one area of it,

[bikersk]

We've had 2 trainers recently at our gym. One says vertical one says horizontal. I don't bloody know, but I find palm down a bit slower. I like the idea previously mentioned about when on the inside use palm up and outside or over with the left palm down. Seems to work and make sense. Either way if someone hits you hard you don't really notice if it's palm up or down i guess.

[cpcompany]

My coach is pretty strict on form and I have been taught to throw with the palm facing down when going to the head and with the palm vertical with a slight tilt when hitting the body.

I noticed on combinations on the bag that i get a harder dig when throwing to the body but when i throw to the head the punch is sharper and crisper if you throw the textbook way.