Best Super Middleweight of all time to date?

[Ghost]

Fighters may have weighed 168 lbs. but they were not super middleweights. I understand your argument, but I don't believe it falls into the scope of the question and furthmore as you pointed out it reaches to times where would not have as much material to make a decision.

In fact it does fall into the scope of the question.. "All Time Best" I have been watching fights since before 1984, before they made a division called "Super Middleweight".

168lbs is 168lbs, regardless of what label you place it on.

If the question was: "Who is the greastest "Super Middleweight" since 1984, I would not have posted, but as that was not the question, it opens it up to debate as to who is the best "Super Middleweight" of all time, and last time I looked, 1901 was before 1984.

So, to make this relevant give me an example.

Bill Yank Rudd fought between 1910 and 1920, had 39 fights and is concered a "Super Middleweight" fighter even tho division did not exist back then.

I am sure that if I went back farther I can come with others that fall in "All Time" list.

[BIG H]

Who was the better of the two RJJ or Joe @ SMW?
I'd have to side with RJJ.

How do I rank them, well being that I personally rank RJJ as a LHW. I would rank Joe as #1.

Yeh totally agree. Had they fought Prime for Prime I would strongly favour RJJ to win, BUT if you are ranking them at SMW, You'd have to put JC ahead on achievment, longjevity etc.

[Tysonbruno]

The top 10 of all time in the mag were

1.Roy Jones
2.Joe Calzaghe
3.Nigel Benn
4.Chris Eubank
5.James Toney
6.Steve Collins
7.Sven Ottke
8.Steve Liles
9.Chong Pal Park
10.Mikkel Kessler

Do you mean Frank Liles or Steve Littles ?

LOL yes mate Frankie Liles its because as i was writing i was thinking of his fight with Steve Little and his up and downer with Tim Littles cheers mate.

[ICB]

Someone on these boards once argued that there was difference between being the best and being the greatest. Following that I'd say Roy Jones was the best Super Middleweight of all time - no one who has ever fought at 168 would have beaten a prime RJJ at the weight - while Calzaghe is the greatest (due to a better resume at the weight).

That was probably me, I agree.

The most accomplished super middleweight ever was Calzaghe without any real question imo. The best was Roy Jones Jr., match any super middleweight with a prime RJ then RJ wins no matter who the other guy beat.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

For someone to simply say 'a prime roy jones could beat anyone' is ridiculous.

Jones had 7 fights at supermiddleweight and this makes him the best ever? He didnt unify belts and isnt unbeaten...yet hes 'the best ever' for beating only one worthy challenger at that weight category and a load of bums...people need to start looking at the facts rather than bullsh1t.

Calzaghe beats 5 worthy chllengers at that weight (kessler, lacy, reid, eubank and mitchell)...as well as about 5 x the amount of bums that roy jones fought at super middle and p1ssed all over them...yet he 'wouldnt even stand a chance against a prime roy jones'.

Truly laughable.

Jones was in his prime against the tricky southpaw fighter tarver...LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!

So is it inconcievable to think that an even trickier, faster and more skilled southpaw fighter couldve beaten him?

Ah...i forgot, hes roy jones, his unbelievable incredible record of beating toney, trinidad, hopkins and ruiz, makes him automatically the 'greatest ever'.

The fact he lost to tarver and johnson is meaningless right?

What makes me laugh so much on this forum is that people judge boxers on just 1 or 2 performances, TO JUDGE A BOXER AND EVALUATE HOW GOOD THEY ARE YOU MUST LOOK AT THEIR WHOLE CAREER IN BOXING.

Not 1 or 2 performances.

Calzaghe is far from his peak now, he was at his peak 3 years ago when he totally bashed lacy sh1tless...yet people think its totally inconcievable for the guy who completely schooled lacy (better than anyone jones fought at super middle except for toney) that calzaghe 'wouldnt even stand a chance against a peak roy jones'.

Boxers peak for a fight and then decline, but the greatest boxer is the one with the greatest career.

Is a prime buster douglas the greatest heavyweight of all time? NO HES NOT EVEN AN ATG! FAR FROM IT...but he beat a prime tyson...so according to these rules that people have, A PRIME TYSON IS NOT AS GOOD AS A PRIME BUSTER DOUGLAS!

How does that make sense?

Truly pathetic.

One of the dumbest comments i've ever witnessed, your Joe Calzaghe fanboyism is just laughable. Yea the Roy Jones Jr that fought Antonio Tarver was obviously the same Roy Jones who defeated James Toney

And Roy Jones lost to Antonio Tarver because he was a tricky Southpaw ? are you kidding me ? maybe it had something to do with Roy Jones being 35, and dropping tons of weight making him weak which resulted in losing alot of muscle mass. For someone who is supposedly a body builder im suprised you failed to mention this.

Reggie Johnson was a very good tricky Southpaw fighter. Actually he was better than Antonio Tarver, considering when he was at the end of his career. He only just lost a SD to Antonio Tarver, a prime Roy Jones dominated Reggie Johnson. He also beat Eric Harding who was another good Southpaw fighter.

Please actually learn about boxing Roy Jones defeated James Toney, when he was a P4P top 3 fighter in the world. With victories over Reggie Johnson, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Merqui Sosa, Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Tim Littles ETC.

Show me any of Joe Calzaghe's opposition who had a record like that ? if anyone actually believes Joe Calzaghe would of beaten a prime Roy Jones then you don't know boxing end of. Roy Jones was beating fighters like Thulani Malinga easily, who beat a prime Robin Reid, and should of had 2 wins over Nigel Benn including a win over Chris Eubank.

Roy Jones is x2 a fast as Joe Calzaghe, he hits x2 as hard and he does everything better than Joe Calzaghe. He was a special fighter where as Joe Calzaghe is just a very good fighter IMO.

[Pugilistic]

I think accomplishment wise at 168 Calzaghe takes it no doubt.

Had both fighters faced each others in their prime at 168 Jones would win.

To me it goes to Joe due to his long reign there where Jones did nowhere near as much at 168.

[DaxxKahn]

To be an all time great at something or in a certain place you have to have spent some time there...Jones was only at SM for a short period...I don't even think he had 5 fights at the weight class......

Joe Calzaghe was a SMW for pretty much his whole career and managed to hold the reigns tightly,

I have to pick Joe Calzaghe at SMW for the reason of his longevity and ability to stay on top during that stay..

With that being said....

At SMW I think Roy Jones was the most talented fighter to ever grace this sport and that includes SRR....I do not mean over all in their careers but just the version of Jones at 168...IMO he was as close to being unbeatable as any fighter could possibly be.....

[killersheep]

In fact it does fall into the scope of the question.. "All Time Best" I have been watching fights since before 1984, before they made a division called "Super Middleweight".

168lbs is 168lbs, regardless of what label you place it on.

If the question was: "Who is the greastest "Super Middleweight" since 1984, I would not have posted, but as that was not the question, it opens it up to debate as to who is the best "Super Middleweight" of all time, and last time I looked, 1901 was before 1984.

So, to make this relevant give me an example.

Bill Yank Rudd fought between 1910 and 1920, had 39 fights and is concered a "Super Middleweight" fighter even tho division did not exist back then.

I am sure that if I went back farther I can come with others that fall in "All Time" list.

OK let's approach this logically then, this is all according to boxrec, because I don't know anything about the guy. He fought for a regional heavyweight and middleweight title losing both, never fought anyone of note. Furthermore his few recorded weigh-ins had him in at middleweight and light heavyweight limits. I don't see how he is relevant. I don't see how you can consider him a super middleweight either. Please find another example or at least explain how he was a Super Middleweight, IF you can prove justification for him as a super middleweight THEN you can justify how he was better than Calzaghe or Jones Jr.

[rjj tszyu]

If it said greatest SMW I would have voted for Calzaghe because when that word is used I go off achievement, but when the word best is used I simply go off skill and Roy Jones at the time he was at SMW was unbelievably talented and skillfull so he gets my vote here!

[Ghost]

OK let's approach this logically then, this is all according to boxrec, because I don't know anything about the guy. He fought for a regional heavyweight and middleweight title losing both, never fought anyone of note. Furthermore his few recorded weigh-ins had him in at middleweight and light heavyweight limits. I don't see how he is relevant. I don't see how you can consider him a super middleweight either. Please find another example or at least explain how he was a Super Middleweight.

You are missing my point killersheep, The question was "Who is the Best Super Middleweight of All Time"? As there are 1000's of boxers who have fought at 168lbs over the years,(since time began) that no-one has ever seen or heard of, how can a winner or answer to question be given?

If the question was limited to the years between 1984 and now, different story. But "All Time" covers a greater time frame.

[killersheep]

OK let's approach this logically then, this is all according to boxrec, because I don't know anything about the guy. He fought for a regional heavyweight and middleweight title losing both, never fought anyone of note. Furthermore his few recorded weigh-ins had him in at middleweight and light heavyweight limits. I don't see how he is relevant. I don't see how you can consider him a super middleweight either. Please find another example or at least explain how he was a Super Middleweight.

You are missing my point killersheep, The question was "Who is the Best Super Middleweight of All Time"? As there are 1000's of boxers who have fought at 168lbs over the years,(since time began) that no-one has ever seen or heard of, how can a winner or answer to question be given?

If the question was limited to the years between 1984 and now, different story. But "All Time" covers a greater time frame.

I guess my interpretation of it was "the best super middleweight of all time"
as opposed to "the best 168 lb. fighter of all-time" and since the title "Super Middleweight" came into existence in 1984 I foolishly assumed that would constitute a statute of limitations. You're right.

[Majesty]

[quote=Bilbo;624829][quote=killersheep;624809]

The
If that was the case the Floyd Mayweather is the best super featherweight, lightweight, junior welter and welterweight of the last 15 years.

He was the best fighter to come through the weight class as in at that weight class no one could beat him.

But then again you could say the same thing about Oscar at super featherweight or Roy Jones at 154.

Roy was unbeatable at 168 in his prime and prime for prime would massacre Calzaghe.

But Calzaghe is the best champ currently

But as far as potential, Roy could have dominated Super Middleweight and not gotten any credit for it.

Because Calzaghe came along not too far off of Roy and look at how much credit people do NOT give him.

SO what it comes down to is preference.

Roy is one of the greatest in general to ever come into boxing regardless of weight class.

Joe is one of the great super middleweights.

Why does it matter who was the better one? They are both great.

If you ask me who would have won if they fought at super middleweight then Roy would have. But that doesn't mean Calzaghe isnt a great middleweight or the best one currently.

Same goes for Hopkins and Middleweight and Calzaghe and Super Middleweight.

The difference is that Roy and bernard will be two all time greats.

Calzaghe will be in the hall of fame but there's so much people can take credit away from him for.

Lets say he beats Roy and Hopkins alright?
Hopkins and Roy were past their prime.

Other then that he's only beaten Lacy and a faded Eubank and people will say it was a weak super middleweight division he dominated and the names he fought were either overhyped or past their prime.

Same has been said of Mike Tyson.

Because boxing fans today never seem to count a fighter as great until they beat someone "just as great" and prove to be the better man.

But since neither Calzaghe or Jones or Floyd Mayweather Jr ever found that guy.

Rather then add it as a testament to their skill and overall greatness, they use it as an excuse to say they hadn't fought anyone.

Go figure

[Ghost]

OK let's approach this logically then, this is all according to boxrec, because I don't know anything about the guy. He fought for a regional heavyweight and middleweight title losing both, never fought anyone of note. Furthermore his few recorded weigh-ins had him in at middleweight and light heavyweight limits. I don't see how he is relevant. I don't see how you can consider him a super middleweight either. Please find another example or at least explain how he was a Super Middleweight.

You are missing my point killersheep, The question was "Who is the Best Super Middleweight of All Time"? As there are 1000's of boxers who have fought at 168lbs over the years,(since time began) that no-one has ever seen or heard of, how can a winner or answer to question be given?

If the question was limited to the years between 1984 and now, different story. But "All Time" covers a greater time frame.

I guess my interpretation of it was "the best super middleweight of all time"
as opposed to "the best 168 lb. fighter of all-time" and since the title "Super Middleweight" came into existence in 1984 I foolishly assumed that would constitute a statute of limitations. You're right.

It was just a matter of "Time"

[Majesty]

That was probably me, I agree.

The most accomplished super middleweight ever was Calzaghe without any real question imo. The best was Roy Jones Jr., match any super middleweight with a prime RJ then RJ wins no matter who the other guy beat.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

For someone to simply say 'a prime roy jones could beat anyone' is ridiculous.

Jones had 7 fights at supermiddleweight and this makes him the best ever? He didnt unify belts and isnt unbeaten...yet hes 'the best ever' for beating only one worthy challenger at that weight category and a load of bums...people need to start looking at the facts rather than bullsh1t.

Calzaghe beats 5 worthy chllengers at that weight (kessler, lacy, reid, eubank and mitchell)...as well as about 5 x the amount of bums that roy jones fought at super middle and p1ssed all over them...yet he 'wouldnt even stand a chance against a prime roy jones'.

Truly laughable.

Jones was in his prime against the tricky southpaw fighter tarver...LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!

So is it inconcievable to think that an even trickier, faster and more skilled southpaw fighter couldve beaten him?

Ah...i forgot, hes roy jones, his unbelievable incredible record of beating toney, trinidad, hopkins and ruiz, makes him automatically the 'greatest ever'.

The fact he lost to tarver and johnson is meaningless right?

What makes me laugh so much on this forum is that people judge boxers on just 1 or 2 performances, TO JUDGE A BOXER AND EVALUATE HOW GOOD THEY ARE YOU MUST LOOK AT THEIR WHOLE CAREER IN BOXING.

Not 1 or 2 performances.

Calzaghe is far from his peak now, he was at his peak 3 years ago when he totally bashed lacy sh1tless...yet people think its totally inconcievable for the guy who completely schooled lacy (better than anyone jones fought at super middle except for toney) that calzaghe 'wouldnt even stand a chance against a peak roy jones'.

Boxers peak for a fight and then decline, but the greatest boxer is the one with the greatest career.

Is a prime buster douglas the greatest heavyweight of all time? NO HES NOT EVEN AN ATG! FAR FROM IT...but he beat a prime tyson...so according to these rules that people have, A PRIME TYSON IS NOT AS GOOD AS A PRIME BUSTER DOUGLAS!

How does that make sense?

Truly pathetic.

One of the dumbest comments i've ever witnessed, your Joe Calzaghe fanboyism is just laughable. Yea the Roy Jones Jr that fought Antonio Tarver was obviously the same Roy Jones who defeated James Toney

And Roy Jones lost to Antonio Tarver because he was a tricky Southpaw ? are you kidding me ? maybe it had something to do with Roy Jones being 35, and dropping tons of weight making him weak which resulted in losing alot of muscle mass. For someone who is supposedly a body builder im suprised you failed to mention this.

Reggie Johnson was a very good tricky Southpaw fighter. Actually he was better than Antonio Tarver, considering when he was at the end of his career. He only just lost a SD to Antonio Tarver, a prime Roy Jones dominated Reggie Johnson. He also beat Eric Harding who was another good Southpaw fighter.

Please actually learn about boxing Roy Jones defeated James Toney, when he was a P4P top 3 fighter in the world. With victories over Reggie Johnson, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Merqui Sosa, Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Tim Littles ETC.

Show me any of Joe Calzaghe's opposition who had a record like that ? if anyone actually believes Joe Calzaghe would of beaten a prime Roy Jones then you don't know boxing end of. Roy Jones was beating fighters like Thulani Malinga easily, who beat a prime Robin Reid, and should of had 2 wins over Nigel Benn including a win over Chris Eubank.

Roy Jones is x2 a fast as Joe Calzaghe, he hits x2 as hard and he does everything better than Joe Calzaghe. He was a special fighter where as Joe Calzaghe is just a very good fighter IMO.

Good ppints ICB

I did find it sort of funny how he mentioned how he is "amazed" how people judge fighters off of one or two performances

Yet he brings up how Roy lost to Tarver and Johnson and said Roy was in his "prime" doing them and pulls them out as reason Calzaghe would stand a chance. Isn't he sort of contradicting himself?

[killersheep]

You are missing my point killersheep, The question was "Who is the Best Super Middleweight of All Time"? As there are 1000's of boxers who have fought at 168lbs over the years,(since time began) that no-one has ever seen or heard of, how can a winner or answer to question be given?

If the question was limited to the years between 1984 and now, different story. But "All Time" covers a greater time frame.

I guess my interpretation of it was "the best super middleweight of all time"
as opposed to "the best 168 lb. fighter of all-time" and since the title "Super Middleweight" came into existence in 1984 I foolishly assumed that would constitute a statute of limitations. You're right.

It was just a matter of "Time"

Ok so, now that you've established this covers more time than that accepted by every other poster on this thread it is TIME for you to make any relevancy on this by providing a single person that fought at 168 that could be considered greater than Jones Jr. and Calzaghe. Ready? Go.....

[ArawakWarria]

Roy beat Toney in this weight class, but he won all of his belts at LightHW. He has spent more than the past decade there, which puts him at top LiteHeavies.

Calzaghe has dominated the division for longer than anyone else in its existence. Seven fights do not outweigh an entire undefeated career.