Define a "Duck"

[Thread Stealer]

It's hard to clarify exactly what a "duck" is because there's a lot of things behind closed doors that go on.

For example, Roberto Duran got stripped of his WBA belt at 154 for not facing his mandatory in Mike McCallum. Instead, he fought the more established, WBC champ in Thomas Hearns for more money. A duck? I think not.

Duran was supposed to fight Carlos Ortiz in a non-title bout at MSG, but his management (Carlos Eleta) told him no and pulled out, saying Duran was sick. Eleta also didn't want Duran to have a rematch with Ken Buchanan, or fight Antonio Cervantes at 140. Are these considered "ducks"? Buchanan later said something like "Duran would fight anyone but his management made the decisions".

Or what about Floyd Mayweather and Kostya Tszyu? Is Mayweather re-signing with HBO, the more powerful and lucrative network, considered a "duck"? Exclusive HBO and Showtime fighters don't fight each other unless it's something like Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson which generates $100 million in PPV revenue.

People always talk about Ray Leonard "ducking" Aaron Pryor because they watched Legendary Nights. Pryor "called out" Leonard at a press conference, but all the big names are going to get challenged. Fighters want to fight the big names. Does a welterweight champ have an obligation to fight a champ in a lower weight class, when the other champ hasn't done anything at welter?

What exactly is a fair definition/explanation of a "duck"?

[killersheep]

I consider it a duck when there is a clear challenge which would be the best opposition to be made in a specific weight class a reasonable offer is made from one side and declined by the other, to fight a lesser challenge or cashcow. The alphabet straps have very little to do with it IMO. Mandatories be damned, they are largely a case of who has paid the most sanctioning fees.

Ducking example: Wonjongakam's career.

[SweetPea]

To me, it's only a "duck" when a fighter avoids fighting an opponent who is both the most worthy challenger AND the biggest potential paycheck.

I don't like it when people accuse a fighter of "ducking" someone in order to make more money against someone else. After all, they call it "prize"fighting for a reason. These guys fight to get paid. Considering that any boxer's career can end at any time from any one punch, I will never fault a guy for chasing the biggest paycheck.

Like I said, a duck only occurs when the person being ducked represents the biggest challenge and the biggest paycheck to the fighter who is doing the ducking.

[Youngblood]

Simply, when a guy won't fight because he is afraid he is going to get his ass beat.

[southakron314]

Simply, when a guy won't fight because he is afraid he is going to get his ass beat.

Cotto and Pavlik with Mayweather and Calzaghe.
Calzaghe and his camp are running like spineless guttless turds. Lets fight another old man.

[Thread Stealer]

To me, it's only a "duck" when a fighter avoids fighting an opponent who is both the most worthy challenger AND the biggest potential paycheck.

I don't like it when people accuse a fighter of "ducking" someone in order to make more money against someone else. After all, they call it "prize"fighting for a reason. These guys fight to get paid. Considering that any boxer's career can end at any time from any one punch, I will never fault a guy for chasing the biggest paycheck.

Like I said, a duck only occurs when the person being ducked represents the biggest challenge and the biggest paycheck to the fighter who is doing the ducking.

In this case, I'm not sure which instances there really are of "ducking". It's pretty much always risk/reward.

Mayweather-Margarito can be debated, but Baldomir paid the same amount and was a bolt from Arum (which meant huge dollars with Golden Boy Promotions since they weren't working with Top Rank at the time). It also meant more significance on paper (Ring/linear/WBC titles > WBO title), although I'm hard pressed to find anyone who would claim that Margarito was not the tougher challenge of the 2.

[:::PSL:::]

When a worthy opponent challenges another one, and won't comply at all.

[Put Em' Up]

It's hard to clarify exactly what a "duck" is because there's a lot of things behind closed doors that go on.

For example, Roberto Duran got stripped of his WBA belt at 154 for not facing his mandatory in Mike McCallum. Instead, he fought the more established, WBC champ in Thomas Hearns for more money. A duck? I think not.

Duran was supposed to fight Carlos Ortiz in a non-title bout at MSG, but his management (Carlos Eleta) told him no and pulled out, saying Duran was sick. Eleta also didn't want Duran to have a rematch with Ken Buchanan, or fight Antonio Cervantes at 140. Are these considered "ducks"? Buchanan later said something like "Duran would fight anyone but his management made the decisions".

Or what about Floyd Mayweather and Kostya Tszyu? Is Mayweather re-signing with HBO, the more powerful and lucrative network, considered a "duck"? Exclusive HBO and Showtime fighters don't fight each other unless it's something like Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson which generates $100 million in PPV revenue.

People always talk about Ray Leonard "ducking" Aaron Pryor because they watched Legendary Nights. Pryor "called out" Leonard at a press conference, but all the big names are going to get challenged. Fighters want to fight the big names. Does a welterweight champ have an obligation to fight a champ in a lower weight class, when the other champ hasn't done anything at welter?

What exactly is a fair definition/explanation of a "duck"?

Great Topic.

A "Duck" in the traditional sense is often misused. You made some great examples on how they are often misused. Especially with the McCallum/Hearns fight examples. Those are not Ducks. There were legit purses of signifigant amounts to be gained. Also the McCallum fight is one that could have been made right after the Hearns bout. that was more or less putting something on the back burner.

A good example of a Duck is Jack Dempsey and Sam Langford.

The bout between Jack Dempsey and Sam Langford was proposed dozens of times. Jack used to use the Race card as an excuse then just totally change the subject. Even if asked "Would you fight him if he was white"

Years later Dempsey admitted in his biography that color had nothing to do with it. he was flat out scared to fight him.

If a fighter has the opportunity to face one of three champions and he picks the weakest link I consider that a duck. If a champion has the chance to unify but decides to fight a guy ranked 25th in the organization he represents I consider that a duck.

If a champion would rather have his title stripped then face a certain opponent that is a mandatory I consider that a duck.

I do not think all ducks have to do with a fighter being "Scared" of another fighter as some perople think. At times it has to do with money. Why fight one guy when the other is worth 3 million more.

Roy Jones "Ducked" Joe Calzaghe when he was LHW champion and all the offers where being made. Roy himself said it not too long ago during a fight telecast (I think it was during the Hopkins/Calzaghe bout).

Jones stated he would like to fight the winner of the bout. If it was Calzaghe he would even be willing to go to the UK.The other announcer asked why did he not fight Calzaghe years ago when the fight was being proposed and he was champion. His reply.

"They wanted the fight in the UK and I had too much to lose then"

Jones was not scared of Calzaghe but he was not risking things either.

Dozens of fighters have been ducked and will continue to be ducked. Sometimes it is for money, sometimes it is just because a guy does not want to risk it, why go through 1 war and risk a loss when you can go through 3 minor altercations that you will come out unscathed with the same benifits.

Of course the promotion teram has a lot to do with who fights who so you can not always blame the fighter.

[GAME]

It floats on water and quacks.

[Kel]

To me, it's only a "duck" when a fighter avoids fighting an opponent who is both the most worthy challenger AND the biggest potential paycheck.

I don't like it when people accuse a fighter of "ducking" someone in order to make more money against someone else. After all, they call it "prize"fighting for a reason. These guys fight to get paid. Considering that any boxer's career can end at any time from any one punch, I will never fault a guy for chasing the biggest paycheck.

Like I said, a duck only occurs when the person being ducked represents the biggest challenge and the biggest paycheck to the fighter who is doing the ducking.

From a Floyd fan perspective.

[Kel]

Simply, when a guy won't fight because he is afraid he is going to get his ass beat.

Cotto and Pavlik with Mayweather and Calzaghe.
Calzaghe and his camp are running like spineless guttless turds. Lets fight another old man.

Lacy and kessler were younger, fuck Hopkins, you all wanted the fight right? wanted him to fight in the states right? Joe did it and won.

Now Hopkins was old and fighting in the states was irrelevant for Joe? If Joe said NO you have a right to say that. But you don't, he did the business.

[SweetPea]

To me, it's only a "duck" when a fighter avoids fighting an opponent who is both the most worthy challenger AND the biggest potential paycheck.

I don't like it when people accuse a fighter of "ducking" someone in order to make more money against someone else. After all, they call it "prize"fighting for a reason. These guys fight to get paid. Considering that any boxer's career can end at any time from any one punch, I will never fault a guy for chasing the biggest paycheck.

Like I said, a duck only occurs when the person being ducked represents the biggest challenge and the biggest paycheck to the fighter who is doing the ducking.

From a Floyd fan perspective.

No, from a boxing fan's perspective. Care to provide your definition of the term?

[SweetPea]

Simply, when a guy won't fight because he is afraid he is going to get his ass beat.

Cotto and Pavlik with Mayweather and Calzaghe.
Calzaghe and his camp are running like spineless guttless turds. Lets fight another old man.

No in both cases, neither is a duck yet.

Floyd fought Oscar last year in May because he could make way more money than any other fight, and because Cotto wasn't ready (he hadn't even beaten a fighter of Judah's caliber yet).

Floyd was going to fight Oscar again because he was by far the biggest paycheck. Now, if Cotto beats Margarito and then beats Oscar (with Oscar going into retirement after that), then Cotto would at that point be by far the most worthy challenger AND the biggest paycheck. At that point, if Floyd were to come back in 2009 and fight anyone besides Cotto, then it would be 100% fair to accuse Floyd of ducking him.

Calzaghe isn't ducking Pavlik. People bash old Roy Jones, but Jones is still a much bigger name in America (and Europe) than Pavlik is. I bet Jones will bring a bigger paycheck and many more PPV buys than Pavlik can. And why should Joe rush to fight Pavlik?? Pavlik is young, he's not going anywhere. Joe can fight Jones and then still have Pavlik as an option after. Whereas Jones is near the end, if Joe puts off fighting him, he may never get the chance to fight him.

[CountryBoy]

It's hard to clarify exactly what a "duck" is because there's a lot of things behind closed doors that go on.

For example, Roberto Duran got stripped of his WBA belt at 154 for not facing his mandatory in Mike McCallum. Instead, he fought the more established, WBC champ in Thomas Hearns for more money. A duck? I think not.

Duran was supposed to fight Carlos Ortiz in a non-title bout at MSG, but his management (Carlos Eleta) told him no and pulled out, saying Duran was sick. Eleta also didn't want Duran to have a rematch with Ken Buchanan, or fight Antonio Cervantes at 140. Are these considered "ducks"? Buchanan later said something like "Duran would fight anyone but his management made the decisions".

Or what about Floyd Mayweather and Kostya Tszyu? Is Mayweather re-signing with HBO, the more powerful and lucrative network, considered a "duck"? Exclusive HBO and Showtime fighters don't fight each other unless it's something like Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson which generates $100 million in PPV revenue.

People always talk about Ray Leonard "ducking" Aaron Pryor because they watched Legendary Nights. Pryor "called out" Leonard at a press conference, but all the big names are going to get challenged. Fighters want to fight the big names. Does a welterweight champ have an obligation to fight a champ in a lower weight class, when the other champ hasn't done anything at welter?

What exactly is a fair definition/explanation of a "duck"?

Calzaghe ducking Pavlik

[SE7EN]

It rhymes with f*ck