Political Views vs. Personality Contests

[TitoFan]

Here's a novel idea. Instead of limiting ourselves to bashing politicians we don't like (and groveling over the ones we worship)... why don't we put forth our opinions on individual ISSUES?

I know. It's a foreign thought to most people today. But trust me... this is how it was way back when... and that's how it should have stayed.

I'll give it a go.

Now we all know (or should know) that looking for an unbiased comparative table on political Party platforms is pretty much like looking for a needle in a haystack. Some of the tables out there are downright comical in their bias.
But if you're into doing a little homework, you should be able to find fair comparisons.


So without going into too much explanation (for now)... I'll just throw some issues out there, along with my leaning on each.



Immigration - R
Healthcare - D
Taxation - D
2nd Amendment - D
Environment - D
Defense - R
Education - R
Religious Freedom - R
LGBTQ+ - R
Abortion - R
Energy - D


Now... I may very well have missed a handful of issues. In fact, I'm certain of it. But those are the ones off the top of my head.

Also... my leaning is stronger in some of the issues than others. In some issues, I'm pretty much close to the center, and... depending on the politicians in charge at the time... I could easily switch sides.



Anyway, for whatever it's worth... this is my crude attempt at deflecting from the tired Trump and Biden threads, and talk about what's REALLY IMPORTANT... the issues.

Number one... it's the issues that matter. Number two... as much as people defend them, neither Trump nor Biden are shining examples of what Presidents should be.

With that, I'll ignore any comments on either Trump or Biden on this thread as much as possible.

[Primo Carnera]

Here's a novel idea. Instead of limiting ourselves to bashing politicians we don't like (and groveling over the ones we worship)... why don't we put forth our opinions on individual ISSUES?

I know. It's a foreign thought to most people today. But trust me... this is how it was way back when... and that's how it should have stayed.

I'll give it a go.

Now we all know (or should know) that looking for an unbiased comparative table on political Party platforms is pretty much like looking for a needle in a haystack. Some of the tables out there are downright comical in their bias.
But if you're into doing a little homework, you should be able to find fair comparisons.


So without going into too much explanation (for now)... I'll just throw some issues out there, along with my leaning on each.



Immigration - R
Healthcare - D
Taxation - D
2nd Amendment - D
Environment - D
Defense - R
Education - R
Religious Freedom - R
LGBTQ+ - R
Abortion - R
Energy - D


Now... I may very well have missed a handful of issues. In fact, I'm certain of it. But those are the ones off the top of my head.

Also... my leaning is stronger in some of the issues than others. In some issues, I'm pretty much close to the center, and... depending on the politicians in charge at the time... I could easily switch sides.



Anyway, for whatever it's worth... this is my crude attempt at deflecting from the tired Trump and Biden threads, and talk about what's REALLY IMPORTANT... the issues.

Number one... it's the issues that matter. Number two... as much as people defend them, neither Trump nor Biden are shining examples of what Presidents should be.

With that, I'll ignore any comments on either Trump or Biden on this thread as much as possible.

Not being funny but what is “R” and what is “D” ?

[TitoFan]

Here's a novel idea. Instead of limiting ourselves to bashing politicians we don't like (and groveling over the ones we worship)... why don't we put forth our opinions on individual ISSUES?

I know. It's a foreign thought to most people today. But trust me... this is how it was way back when... and that's how it should have stayed.

I'll give it a go.

Now we all know (or should know) that looking for an unbiased comparative table on political Party platforms is pretty much like looking for a needle in a haystack. Some of the tables out there are downright comical in their bias.
But if you're into doing a little homework, you should be able to find fair comparisons.


So without going into too much explanation (for now)... I'll just throw some issues out there, along with my leaning on each.



Immigration - R
Healthcare - D
Taxation - D
2nd Amendment - D
Environment - D
Defense - R
Education - R
Religious Freedom - R
LGBTQ+ - R
Abortion - R
Energy - D


Now... I may very well have missed a handful of issues. In fact, I'm certain of it. But those are the ones off the top of my head.

Also... my leaning is stronger in some of the issues than others. In some issues, I'm pretty much close to the center, and... depending on the politicians in charge at the time... I could easily switch sides.



Anyway, for whatever it's worth... this is my crude attempt at deflecting from the tired Trump and Biden threads, and talk about what's REALLY IMPORTANT... the issues.

Number one... it's the issues that matter. Number two... as much as people defend them, neither Trump nor Biden are shining examples of what Presidents should be.

With that, I'll ignore any comments on either Trump or Biden on this thread as much as possible.

Not being funny but what is “R” and what is “D” ?

Sorry bro, you're right. My mistake. R is Republican (right-wing party)... D is Democrat (left-wing party).

[Spicoli]

Don't forget the I the L or the common just straight up Indifferent . I think one of the best things is when you're brought into heated social political "debate" or argument and within 5 minutes manage to lose, confuse and these days piss off both sides . Problem is that everyone wants that immediate alignment and to categorize based on the simplicity of solo topics. The last 5,6 plus years has seen a polarization like that. If someone disagrees with a or b...then why even be bothered to make an effort etc. Just a simplistic ramble here. Topics are faaaar more in depth. Coffee running its course.

Immigration - All for it legally. Guess I lean more endless cheap labor force and an honest attempt at starting over rather than seeing an invading army of drug traffickers and sex peddlers. "They're taking our jObS" is not a thing. Frankly Americans can be really lazy. And putting razor wire buoys in the waters as a deterrent ala Texas is the thing of scared small minded militarized Nations. Not us.
Healthcare - Could use some. Did not support Obama care 'mandates' and never signed up. But life decisions are a factor and why not everything should not be "free" across the board.
Taxation - Is theft.
2nd Amendment - Oh boy. Absolute. I've owned since the age of 14. What gets lost today is that freedoms come with real lasting responsibility.
Environment - I like trees. Lots of them.
Defense - Yes.
Education - Dropped out twice in one week. But went back to finish years later . And College is not for everyone. We should encourage trade courses as early as grade school.
Religious Freedom - You do you and pray to what or who you choose. As long as they're not politicians .
LGBTQ+ - You do what you want with who you want when you want and should have every single guaranteed right I have.
Abortion - A woman's decision a woman's body. Half the people pounding the moral high ground should volunteer at orphanages and stop walking passed homeless people like they don't exist.
Energy - Solar is terribly underutilized. But the requirements for electric cars manufacturing from places like Ca is absolutely laughable. I'll always be a gasoline type of guy. Those grids are not a guarantee and you better become versed in self-reliance.

[TitoFan]

Don't forget the I the L or the common just straight up Indifferent . I think one of the best things is when you're brought into heated social political "debate" or argument and within 5 minutes manage to lose, confuse and these days piss off both sides . Problem is that everyone wants that immediate alignment and to categorize based on the simplicity of solo topics. The last 5,6 plus years has seen a polarization like that. If someone disagrees with a or b...then why even be bothered to make an effort etc. Just a simplistic ramble here. Topics are faaaar more in depth. Coffee running its course.

Immigration - All for it legally. Guess I lean more endless cheap labor force and an honest attempt at starting over rather than seeing an invading army of drug traffickers and sex peddlers. "They're taking our jObS" is not a thing. Frankly Americans can be really lazy. And putting razor wire buoys in the waters as a deterrent ala Texas is the thing of scared small minded militarized Nations. Not us.
Healthcare - Could use some. Did not support Obama care 'mandates' and never signed up. But life decisions are a factor and why not everything should not be "free" across the board.
Taxation - Is theft.
2nd Amendment - Oh boy. Absolute. I've owned since the age of 14. What gets lost today is that freedoms come with real lasting responsibility.
Environment - I like trees. Lots of them.
Defense - Yes.
Education - Dropped out twice in one week. But went back to finish years later . And College is not for everyone. We should encourage trade courses as early as grade school.
Religious Freedom - You do you and pray to what or who you choose. As long as they're not politicians .
LGBTQ+ - You do what you want with who you want when you want and should have every single guaranteed right I have.
Abortion - A woman's decision a woman's body. Half the people pounding the moral high ground should volunteer at orphanages and stop walking passed homeless people like they don't exist.
Energy - Solar is terribly underutilized. But the requirements for electric cars manufacturing from places like Ca is absolutely laughable. I'll always be a gasoline type of guy. Those grids are not a guarantee and you better become versed in self-reliance.

Good post, R. It's always good to expand on why you believe in the things you do. I'll attempt to do the same, expanding on my choices from above.

Immigration (R) - I believe in some sort of border control. Not the medieval wall that Trump insists is necessary in today's 21st century to keep "murderers and rapists" out... but the use of high-tech measures to exert some sort of control over immigration. People should be allowed to migrate to lands of opportunity. But some sort of control is necessary to keep things on an even keel.

Healthcare (D) - I fully believe healthcare should be an inalienable right. Ironic... some feel that way about guns... but I'll get to that soon enough. Healthcare should not be a luxury affordable only by the rich. And it's just as true (and disgusting) that big pharma preys on the poor to make their plight even more inhumane. It's just wrong. I had no problem with some doable version of Obamacare, or whatever name should've been given to it.

Taxation (D) - On the face of it, yes... it could be perceived as highway robbery. However, going on the premise that some sort of taxation is necessary to keep governmental efforts going... then it is my belief that the rich should bear their fair share, and not be allowed to become richer hiding behind loopholes.

2nd Amendment (D) - Sure would've been nice if James Madison or any other of our founding fathers would've had a crystal ball and been able to peer into the 20th century and beyond. Pretty sure they would've ripped up the first draft and given it another try. Any text from the 1700's that is used to clutch onto misguided beliefs, without any type of control or responsibility... is not ok by me, IMHO. This is where I draw the distinction between healthcare and bearing arms. The first is truly an inalienable right. The second... a PRIVILEGE. Much like driving a car. A privilege to be EARNED. Not something that gets put into your hands because it's your "God-given right."

Environment (D) - Yeah. We're only puny humans. But in the number of billions, we can certainly do some damage. It's narrowminded to think otherwise. Animals take better care of their environment than we do. That's not something to be proud of.

Defense (R) - In today's madman world? You better believe I believe in a strong defense. Not constantly butting into other countries' business mind you... but defense. They're not one and the same.

Education (R) - I'm a total believer in education. But I'm also a believer in the capitalist system. You can get some things handed to you in life on a silver platter. Education needn't be one of them. I believe in the good, old-fashioned work ethic. You want a good education? You should need to work for it. Otherwise you get a bunch of entitled kids with unpayable student loans looking to the government to constantly forgive all debts. Not a good start in life.

Religious freedoms (R) - I come from that background. I respect other people's stances on this... and I expect other people to respect my own.

LGBTQ+ (R) - I've said it countless times before... and it bears repeating. Your rights stop where mine begin. You do not get to dictate what my elementary school child learns in school regarding genders. You do not get to pit your "transitioned" son against my daughter in athletic competitions. You do not get to change my vocabulary, which has been in existence for centuries. In plain terms, you do not get to dictate to me how I'm supposed to live MY life.

Abortion (R) - Other than extreme cases involving rape, incest, or mortal infant diseases... see "Religious Freedoms" above. "I don't feel like having it" doesn't qualify under those terms. Again... IMHO.

Energy (D) - Our dependence on oil and our narrowmindedness regarding it's "inexhaustibility" is backward thinking. The technology is out there. Embrace it.

[Kirkland Laing]

I'm going to do these but not all at once.


Immigration. The western world is going to import hundreds of millions of third worlders over the coming decades to keep their economies going. Hundreds of millions. Up to now America has been able to close its eyes to the southern border and enough people have come here voluntarily to take the jobs the economy is creating. The GOP historically make an issue out of it at election time and up until recently the Democratic party did too but they didn't make too much of a big deal out of it because both sides know the people have to keep coming to supply labour market demand and this is the least worst/controversial way to achieve it.

But then you had Trump who doesn't give a shit about the problems and practicalities of governing a nation and is quite happy to use it as an issue to get himself elected. Quietly he's saying exactly the same to his billionaire donors as historical GOP candidates, I'm making an issue out of it but trust me labour market supply to your businesses will remain unaffected. But it's causing a big issue in the country because he's raising the saliency of the issue far far more than any previous GOP or Democratic candidate has ever done.

You'll get the same open southern border as long as Democrats stay in power. Look why:

[fucking FRED website not cooperating. Will post later.]


Here's why:

fredgraph.jpg



When the GOP get in it'll be the dog who caught the car. Like overturning Roe versus Wade. They're going to have to pretend to do something about it while they let in everybody who wants to come. And to be fair Trump managed to create enough theatre last time to hide the actual facts on the ground. Maybe they can just keep on doing that indefinitely.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

Trump easily wins in 2024 and saves the Western world

[TitoFan]

Trump easily wins in 2024 and saves the Western world

[Kirkland Laing]

There's a number of people in America who would like a universal system funded by the government, a "Medicare for all" system. It polls really well with the public, sixty plus percent support it. Proponents will show you stuff like this:





and point out that if America scrapped its lean efficient private system and adopted a bloated bureaucratic inefficient government run system like other major economies then everybody in America could get healthcare for less total expenditure than America pays out now.

It's not happening though.

Sixty percent say it's a good idea until you mention that they might not have the level of choice over doctors, treatments and so on that they have now, wait times might go up and so on and support collapses. The majority of voters, note her voters, are happy with their health insurance. Mention that the new system might be worse for them and they don't want to take the risk. The people who would get healthcare under this system by and large don't vote. This is the thing with a lot of Democratic issues. They're on the side of minorities be it racial or gay/gender stuff or stuff than benefits non voters and it's a difficult way to win elections. Opposing all this stuff and siding with the majority is an easy way to win elections. Doing the right thing is by and large a political losing strategy.

Add on the fact that medical stuff/hospital bills/health insurance etc were increasing in cost faster than regular inflation which helped create widespread support for change but the Obamacare bill actually contained a lot of provisions which have bent the cost curve back in line with the prevailing rate of inflation. Add on it would be impossible to renegotiate vast amounts of already agreed contracts between health insurance companies, hospitals and so on and so a lot of the savings would be impossible for years/decades. Things are not going to change anytime soon. America is going to continue with its current system for the forseeable future.

Now taxation. You may think taxation is theft or that it can be perceived as highway robbery but the thing is somebody has to build and maintain the highways. It turns out that large groups of people also need some level of law enforcement, justice and prison systems, they need schools where their kids can be educated enough to help them find employment, they need some level of national defence, endless other stuff like food safety inspectors and air traffic controllers and customs and border officials and embassies in foreign countries and people to try and preserve clean air and water and services for children without families for whatever reason and so on and so on and so on. Some countries even allow their senior citizens to have some level of social security in later life and a bit of healthcare too.

To pay for all these things we sent part of our income to a bunch of people we call the "government". These people then use this money in the least inefficient way humanity has yet come up with to provide these various things to the people. It's absolutely impossible to run a modern society without the things listed above and endless more not mentioned. Kids need to be educated today so that there's a future generation of adult workers with the ability to do the jobs which will keep the whole economy functioning smoothly. Nobody likes paying taxes but everybody needs to understand that the "government" needs to be adequately funded to provide all of these services otherwise everybody becomes worse off to a greater or lesser degree soon enough. So, sitting here in my zero percent income tax jurisdiction looking out at my palm trees and coral sand and drinking vintage Krug I urge you to consider just how vital it is that you continue to keep funding these critical services.

There are alternatives however. There's currently a zero tax libertarian paradise near America called Haiti. They decided to get rid of their bloated inefficient government and are now reaping the benefits:

The last 10 remaining senators in Haiti’s parliament have officially left office, leaving the country without a single democratically elected government official.The expiration of the officials’ terms at midnight on Monday formally concluded their time in office – and with it, the last semblance of democratic order in the beleaguered Caribbean nation.

Haiti – which is currently engulfed in gang violence and the worst malnutrition crisis in decades – now officially has no functioning parliament as the senators were the last of 30 to remain in office after successive failed efforts to hold elections.
There is now no constitutional representation at any state level, the latest sign that the country has become a failed state.
“The constitution, which until now we have been referring to as the framework for political transition, is essentially just a letter, because none of the institutional architecture that it describes is currently in place,” said Renata Segura, deputy director for Latin America and the Caribbean at the International Crisis Group, a peacebuilding thinktank.
Haiti is plagued by a series of acute, overlapping crises as gangs violently exploit a power vacuum to expand their control of the capital.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y-failed-state





They seem to be having some teething troubles but I'm sure they'll sort it out.



There's a bloke I know here who earned his living on the high seas. For a couple of decades he was an actual pirate and then graduated to disposing toxic waste. And he used to dispose of it by buying a knackered old ship, filling the ship with the shit, employing a skeleton crew of third worlders to sail it to the Indian Ocean and crash it full steam into the coastline of another libertarian paradise, Somalia.





Good evening, we're from the Mogadishu Neighbourhood Watch Scheme and we're here to look after your home

and possessions for safe keeping. So if you can leave immediately please, and on foot too. That land Cruiser that

you upgraded to after taking advantage of Somalia's low tax environment looks hand, we'll look after that for you too.

Now fuck off.







There not being any government there a while ago he could dispose of shipfuls of chemical/nuclear waste with very few of the costs typically associated with disposing that kind of stuff. The crew baled out before the ship hit the coast, got in his smaller boat and buggered off and then did it again. Anyway, this left an unfortunate series of negative externalities for any future Somalian government to clean up. All this unpleasantness can be avoided if you just pay your taxes. You know it makes sense.

[Kirkland Laing]

Guns:

None of the mass shootings have any effect on Americans and their thing about guns. Likely no future mass shootings will either. But maybe ban assault rifles eh. There's no actual need for them and it would prevent hundreds and probably thousands of kids dying needlessly in the future. Not to mention adults. You fucking lunatics.

https://deadline.com/2022/05/the-oni...ce-1235032722/



Also, too, Supreme Court chief justice:







Environment.

The polls say everybody wants to be green and protect the environment and climate change is a huge problem and needs to be dealt with and so on.

But then you ask people how much they'd pay to do this and the answer is not impressive. Fifty seven percent of Americans would pay a dollar a month extra on their electricity bill to combat climate change.

• $10 a month, 68% opposed
• $20 a month, 69% opposed
• $40 a month, 76% opposed
• $75 a month, 83% opposed
• $100 a month, 82% opposed
  
  https://www.cato.org/blog/68-america...climate-change
  
  
  
  People like to talk about it but don't want to pay for it. And we only have about half the energy technology needed to decarbonise anyway. And global emissions are going to continue to soar for a long time yet no matter what we do in the west. More about this when I get round to energy.
  
  Ooooooh defence next. Watching the Yankees now so another time for that one, it might run on a little.

[TIC]

Guns:

maybe ban assault rifles eh. There's no actual need for them and it would prevent hundreds and probably thousands of kids dying needlessly in the future. Not to mention adults.

who are you to say my property should be banned? i have an actual need for them. i haven't shot any kids or adults. couple of questions for you. you say maybe ban assault rifles (whatever that is) are you saying ban them completely, so no one has them or only certain people should have them? if i chose not to give up mine what would you do?

[TitoFan]

Ok @Kirkland Laing

So far from what I gather your leanings are:

Immigration - D
Healthcare - R
Taxation - D
2nd Amendment - D
Environment - R


Just my impressions after reading through some of your stuff.

[Kirkland Laing]

Ok @Kirkland Laing

So far from what I gather your leanings are:

Immigration - D
Healthcare - R
Taxation - D
2nd Amendment - D
Environment - R


Just my impressions after reading through some of your stuff.

The Democrats have fucked up on immigration. Go back even just as far as Obama's election platform and the language on immigration is exactly the same as the GOP. But they moved to the left from 2012 onwards and that gave Trump a huge opportunity. So I'm 2008-12 and before era Democratic on immigration. Use the same language as the GOP and take the issue off the table as much as is possible.

Not Republican on healthcare. The GOP seem to be entirely against any government provision of healthcare. They were dead against Medicare until it became so popular they couldn't not support it but a huge chunk of the right want to basically defund it even now. The current system is as good as it's going to get for decades to come and that's that. I would at least like to keep the current system and protect it from the GOP.

Not Republican on the environment either. The GOP used to be bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry. Now that the fossil fuel industry is investing untold billions in clean energy they're just anti clean energy just to own the libs and create an issue that has popular support on their side. More to come on this later when I do energy.

[Kirkland Laing]

Guns:

maybe ban assault rifles eh. There's no actual need for them and it would prevent hundreds and probably thousands of kids dying needlessly in the future. Not to mention adults.

who are you to say my property should be banned? i have an actual need for them. i haven't shot any kids or adults. couple of questions for you. you say maybe ban assault rifles (whatever that is) are you saying ban them completely, so no one has them or only certain people should have them? if i chose not to give up mine what would you do?

I would have various mental capacity tests for anybody wanting to buy a gun. Anybody who the tests showed was clearly fucked in the head would be banned from legally owning or acquiring any kind of gun.

[TIC]

Guns:

maybe ban assault rifles eh. There's no actual need for them and it would prevent hundreds and probably thousands of kids dying needlessly in the future. Not to mention adults.

who are you to say my property should be banned? i have an actual need for them. i haven't shot any kids or adults. couple of questions for you. you say maybe ban assault rifles (whatever that is) are you saying ban them completely, so no one has them or only certain people should have them? if i chose not to give up mine what would you do?

I would have various mental capacity tests for anybody wanting to buy a gun. Anybody who the tests showed was clearly fucked in the head would be banned from legally owning or acquiring any kind of gun.

who are you to conduct tests on another person for wanting to buy an inanimate object with their own money? i don't consent to that. anyone he thinks they can rule over another person & tell them what they can & can't do seems clearly fucked in the head to me. do you really think someone who wants to physically harm others or steal from them is going to take your test & by banning guns do you really think that gets rid of guns? like how they banned drugs? did that get rid of drugs? what about prohibition? did that get rid of alcohol? & are you going to be there to protect the people you would leave defenceless with your bans if something happens? banning guns doesn't stop people harming or stealing from others. the problem is people violence. you also avoided my questions, you can just say you prefer not to answer if you like. do you want assault rifles banned completely, so no one has them or only certain people should have them? if i chose not to give up my property, what would you do?